What's worse for the children - the abuse, or leaving and breaking up the family?

[NoGoodAnswers]

Have NC for this...as everything is shit really.
I don't know where to turn. I keep hearing of how much divorce, breaking up the family fucks up kids. Know a couple of friend's who still have not recovered fully, still in therapy.
But on the other hand, does being in this family with the abuse - does that affect them? If they even know about it, though. Maybe they don't.

Kids are 11 and 8; it's been going on since before I was even pregnant with DS (older). Every couple of weeks more or less, we fight. He shouts and calls me names. Throws plates at me. Slaps me around. Not seriously though, so never any bruises. I call him names too. I can't help myself.

But the thing is, this takes place in the evening, after the kids are gone to bed.
We go downstairs to the kitchen - it's got a massive think rolling door that we keep closed. I don't think they can hear us. They've definitely not seen it happening.

So what is the least bad solution, what fucks them up least...

I don't even know what I want. I want to not dread the effects on them.

I'll put in voting:
AIBU: divorce affects them most
AINBU: if they're aware of the domestic stuff that fucks them up worse

Your children know, and they will be frightened. Of course they love their dad, I loved mine too, but I can still remember the blessed relief when me and mum left him. I honestly believe if she had stayed both our lives would have been ruined by my dad's behaviour. As it was, as an adult I was able to have a healthy, loving and boundaried relationship that would have been impossible if mum had stayed with him. Don't kid yourself, by staying you will be complicit in damaging your children, and there is a huge chance they will grow up and not be able to forgive you for not protecting them.

Oh I used to light up when I saw my mother, and people would remark how close we were when I was a child - you're damned right I was nice to her, because I knew what she was like when she was angry. I spent my childhood with a big grin plastered on my face hoping she wouldn't notice if I was in a bad mood.

Your kids might start acting out if you leave, but it'll be as much the release of all that stress as anything else. What would happen if they were anything other than well behaved now? Are they compliant, rather than happy?

op not to be cruel but what do you want us to say, would you like us to tell you that your children will probably be screwed up either way, you seem to have already made your decision even after people have told you that your children definitely know about the abuse, that they are probably terrified of their father but too scared to say anything, that this abuse will carry into their own relationships, that you are making the wrong choice by staying. It's not just about you anymore op you cannot stay with him knowing that what is it 80% of domestic abuse victims end up dead or badly injured. Plus he will one day snap and hurt them it doesn't matter if he hasn't done it yet, he's an abuser so he will

This is exactly what my dad convinced himself of as well. Two of us ended up in care, none of us have anything to do with him as he put his marriage above our safety.

You’re afraid of the unknown of bringing up two kids on your with the financial support you currently have in your marriage.

you’re not staying for the children. It’s a case of better the devil you know.

your DC are already deeply affected by living in a household where there’s abuse and fighting.

my dc were affected deeply by living in an abusive household even tho I left. I shouldn’t have stayed for as long as I did as that’s what affected their mental health.

every abused woman I have ever met has always said he’s a great dad. He’s not l, the dc have learned to appease him and walk on eggshells around him. He’s not a great dad at all.

The family is already broken and will be broken forever.

However, teaching your kids boundaries - my youngest was less than an year and my eldest 7 - I kept as much as I could from them. I couldn’t keep the 9 court cases away from them completely especially as the youngest was 7 and the eldest 15 for the last one.

but I am mum and dad as he doesn’t step up. When he is an arse - I react with dignity but a clear ‘no’ . When he pushes boundaries he is reminded of those boundaries.

our home is dickhead free to a greater extent. He is not allowed to visit. In our case we moved 300 miles away hence the latest court.

it’s peaceful and happy

rephrase your questions
abusive husband and father and shit life for everyone with it being past down to next generation

or break the cycle
Giving them at least happy home that focussed on healing and boundaries and healthy relationship full
of love joy and respect

Kids see and hear a lot more than you think. I grew up in a violent household, I remember my parents thinking they'd hidden stuff from us kids but they didn't have a clue.

My dad always had little "tells" that he was going to get violent that evening and it would make me sick to my stomach dreading it/waiting for it to happen and hearing the shouts and violence.

When my mum finally left my dad I was so relieved.

By the way, I always acted like a dutiful loving daughter who idolised my dad because that's what I thought he wanted and because I didn't want him to get angry. Even when I'd grown up (and all my siblings bar me had cut contact with him) he'd say to me "you were always the child who loved me best". No, I was just the one who was too afraid to show how I really felt..

I doubt you'll listen to me. But in my experience divorce was relief from living in the house of an abusive father and it was the far better option. Living in a violent household with secrets is a tremendous strain for a young child- it is traumatising.

The abuse x 1000

And your children absolutely know, without a shadow of a doubt.

They're children, not idiots.

I know because I was your DC.

Because they will see how it effects you and the atmosphere it creates you can’t hide that

because one day they will be adults who will recognise and see it all and realise and the huge repercussions of that

because once they are teenagers will you be able to shut all of this off from them and if you do try don’t you think they are going to notice they are sent up so esrly

because as teenagers they are also going to start pushing back he is no longer going to hold that position how is he going to cope

The children may not see it with their eyes but they certainly hear it. I left my abusive ex when the kids were 2 and 10 weeks. Best thing I ever did.

Your kids already know OP, they always do, and it'll mess them up forever. The only thing you can do for the best possible outcome is leave as fast as you can. There's no family to break up - because there is no safety for the kids at home so that means it's not really a safe space for them,and that makes it a house but not a home. When you leave they'll get their home, their safe space, and they won't have to worry sick about you any more.

I'm so sorry you are going through this OP. A far happier life is waiting for you and your kids.

Because they know no different. Surely that in itself is a huge worry? Your kids are growing up thinking this is normal.

I loved my dad, I lit up when he came home. It took me into my teenage years to make the connection and realise the shouting at night, the tension, my mums body language - all of this was because of my dad's abuse behind closed doors. And realising that after years of loving him felt like a betrayal.

I grew up in a family like that. Your children can hear you and I can’t tell you how terrifying it is hearing that going on. Not sure if someone will get hurt, or if they will come upstairs. The making up, then it happens all over again. Of course this is worse than getting a divorce. Do you want your children to think this is how women are treated?

The abuse and the atmosphere is so much worse. Like others I breathed a sigh of relief when after years of bs stick together for the kids ended and they went their seperate ways. They will hear it, they will know it's happening, it's soul destroying it's awful, listening to the arguments, the abuse and the atmosphere is never normal afterwards no matter how the parents pretend.
But also you don't deserve this and your children won't want you staying being physically, they won't want their mum being physically abused at night nor the guilt and burden that you think you're doing it for them.
You deserve better, your children deserve better. None of this can be found in a house with an abuser.

Just to add there's this one photo of me and my family laughing and looking like we're the happiest family ever together when I was young, and it's getting smashed one day when my folks have passed on as I remember how incredibly low I was in that photo but I daren't show it. Kids do that OP, I'm sure they're already masking pretty hard at home.

Your poor children.

They know well.

They are bonded to your husband through nothing but fear and terror.

Goodness knows the damage that has been done to them in this environment, but it is not good.

Call Womens aid.

You all deserve better than and angry abuser.

The relationship you and your dh have, is the standard your dc will measure their future relationships against, both romantic and friendships. You need to be setting a good example. Don't for one moment think the dc don't know and can't hear what's going on.

Teach them to be strong individuals who will stand up for themselves and not tolerate any kind of abuse, who are strong enough to remove themselves from toxic relationships and be happy on their own. Teach them to set healthy boundaries in all relationships

They know. As said above even if they are always asleep when abuse happens (unlikely) your relationship presumably is not all happy with no arguing and lots of loving contact throughout the day and then abusive at night. There must be relationship issues when the kids are around. Children pick up on stuff.
Even in a non-abusive unhappy marriage I'd argue it's better for the kids to leave. All you're teaching them by staying is how to not prioritise your own feelings and how it's normal and acceptable to have a violent, aggressive, and unhappy relationship. Think about what you would want for your kids in the future, is it the life you are living?

The children know and the effects are devastating. You need to leave to protect them from this emotional abuse. Please remember that you are most at risk when leaving an abusive man and seek the assistance of Women's Aid.

I used to be a teacher and saw lots of kids going through divorce and family break up.

IMO what fucks kids up most is constant insecurity and living on eggshells. Whether that's from the trauma of living an abusive parent or the insecurity that comes with having a yo-yo parent who flips in and out of a kids life and leaves them constantly guessing. The kids who were able to get a settled, consistent routine that felt predictable and safe did better on the whole.

I would say the constant anxiety of living with an abusive, toxic family member will do them more harm long-term than the shorter-term disruption of a split. Once the dust has settled, you have the chance to make a calm and supportive home life for your kids. And also - don't you deserve better than to stay with someone who treats you so badly?

OP posts like yours always baffle me.
People wake in the night if they hear thunder, or heavy rain, or if people laugh loudly outside, or if a car alarm goes off.....but if young children are lying in bed, in the same building as their beloved parents who are tearing chunks out of each other, they become miraculously deaf?
OP listen to yourself. How can you read all these posts from people who knew their parents were rowing, whilst said parents had no idea? What makes you so different?

Your kids know. And they lie in bed feeling terror that will haunt them for ever. And you and your husband are doing that.
If you won't leave him, then sort your relationship out.

You are teaching your children that putting up with abuse is the correct thing to do .

LOADS of children's parent divorce and the children are perfectly fine. I would imagine that is the not the same for children of abuse.

and you are kidding yourself if you think your kids don't know something is wrong. They might not know you are being abused physically, but they will definitely be picking up on something.

@NoGoodAnswers could your children for example have sleepovers, friends round. CHildren for whom this isnt normal and will see it as such. DO they ever ask to have friends around for sleepovers

Because i suspect for them it is normal and therefore they havent yet realised how it isnt. But at the ages you have it wont be forever.

Abused children love their parents. I’ve seen some with awful injuries and they still cry out at night for their parents.

Your children can love their Dad without you being together.

Also, they will know. They always know.

I'm so sorry you are in this situation, OP. I know you want the best for your kids.

Please speak with Women's Aid. You need specialist support as you are being abused. Please try to separate this from the question of whether or not you should leave. The first step is you getting the support you need.

Abuse is never just physical. The emotional/psychological side is always present and is extremely damaging. The fact that you are willing to accept this behaviour, and to think that your children might not be affected by it, demonstrates this.

It is also very damaging for children to grow up witnessing it (and believe me, they are witnessing it). They will normalize this and repeat the pattern. Do you honestly want your children to grow up and enter into abusive relationships themselves, as either the abuser or the victim? Of course you don't, you obviously love them.

Research can't prove that divorce causes mental health difficulties. Correlation, not causality. PP are probably correct that young people who are having difficulties after divorce probably would have faced those challenges anyway as the divorce happened for a reason. It's the turbulence, conflict, and abuse in the home in the first place that laid the groundwork.