What's worse for the children - the abuse, or leaving and breaking up the family?

[NoGoodAnswers]

Have NC for this...as everything is shit really.
I don't know where to turn. I keep hearing of how much divorce, breaking up the family fucks up kids. Know a couple of friend's who still have not recovered fully, still in therapy.
But on the other hand, does being in this family with the abuse - does that affect them? If they even know about it, though. Maybe they don't.

Kids are 11 and 8; it's been going on since before I was even pregnant with DS (older). Every couple of weeks more or less, we fight. He shouts and calls me names. Throws plates at me. Slaps me around. Not seriously though, so never any bruises. I call him names too. I can't help myself.

But the thing is, this takes place in the evening, after the kids are gone to bed.
We go downstairs to the kitchen - it's got a massive think rolling door that we keep closed. I don't think they can hear us. They've definitely not seen it happening.

So what is the least bad solution, what fucks them up least...

I don't even know what I want. I want to not dread the effects on them.

I'll put in voting:
AIBU: divorce affects them most
AINBU: if they're aware of the domestic stuff that fucks them up worse

They know. Think of peace thst all of you could have including your husband. You would be all better off in two small peaceful properties than in your current situation.
The poor situation will affect them more than leaving. Believe u me I used to wish my parents would split. They were unhappy, argued, not abusive at all but the tension was terrible.

Just to add- when I work with children, they are very aware and in direct work show very clear signs of emotional distress and very often would rather parents separated than have to live through the anxiety. Most are scared one of their parents will be hurt. Just imagine as an adult listening to someone you love being beaten up and imaging the worst? Children know everything that happens in their household and pick-up every mood, including adults walking on eggshells. I have seen too many children feel they have to 'meditate' and try to keep the mood friendly because they know what follows if not. The same if one parent comes home drunk etc. These children spend their lives being hyper-alert. The consequences both physically and emotionally can last throughout their lives.

Your kids will know, and if they only hear it then their minds will be adding the extra details.
The damage is being done NOW. if you split up its not the split that causes the behaviour in the future . Splitting up allows the child the opportunity to get that emotion out , too terrified to act up now , keep it hidden, don't make it worse.
Yes they may have issues but dont fool yourself into believing the divorce causes it. That is you trying to justify not leaving and using that as an excuse.
I work with children who have suffered trauma, neglect and abuse. Children knowing about / seeing DV IS CHILD ABUSE.
please get yourself help and look after yourself and your children x x

If your kids don't know now they will soon.

Take this from someone who's parents stayed together "for the children" - living like this fucks kids up for life. Here are some gems I live with thanks to my parents:
• a fear of loud noises, • a fear of raised voices, • anxiety over what my partner is thinking, • reading into every word said to me, • a messed up perception of how partners should treat eachother.

Don't do this to your kids. If you can't leave for you, leave for them.

Staying in an abusive relationship is the worst thing you can do for your kids. It teaches them that abuse is normal, expected and accepted.

I got me and my kids out and they are finally blossoming in a relaxed and loving home.

Please don't keep kidding yourself that they don't know. They might not hear every word. They might not always hear. But raised voices, plates being smashed - however big your house, however heavy the door, they'll have some awareness. You say that 'tension is normal by now'. That's a really bad sign. Your children will also pick up on this.
Divorce is not easy, but it most certainly is not worse.
I think you need to get some counselling, definitely for yourself, potentially with your husband if he is open to the idea. This can't just continue.

OK....I hear everyone. But it's like we're talking about different things.
If say they were never affected directly - the children love their dad, and viceversa - they light up when he comes home, they love doing things with him at the weekend.
And it never got worse in terms of hurting me.
Then why would this affect them? They cannot even hear let alone see.
I know I can't guarantee that the above circumstances will continue- but that's the case atm.

When you read it's better for children to grow up with 2 parents, they don't mean growing up in a home with abuse/constant fallings out etc.

As some other pp's have already said, growing up in an abusive home stays with you forever. I'm 50 and I've only realised in the last couple of years the full extent of the effects.

Both my parents told me they had stayed together for us (kids). I always wanted to live with my friends and their parents. I still have very special relationships with the parents of 2 childhood friends.

The children will know and it will have an impact on them. The best thing for them is to leave and get yourself and your DC safe. Charities like Women's Aid can help. Please don't put up with this any longer, if not for you then for your DC.

Separation and divorce can mend a broken family.

Staying in an abusive relationship is 100% worse. The children know, believe me.

Remember that kids learn by watching as well as by being taught. What they are learning now is that this is what a "normal" relationship looks like. Is this what you want for them as they grow up? Do you want them to learn what being a man, and a father is from your husband? Is this the role modelling you imagined being able to offer them?

Of course they are aware and are being traumatised.

Please get help for yourself and leave.

You are absolutely delusional to think you are hiding this. Your children know about the fighting. Your children sense the tension. Your children know that you walk on eggshells trying to avoid setting him off.

Your children are starting to internalize that behavior. They are learning to be responsible for the emotions of other people. It is so difficult to teach yourself a different way of being. I’m not sure any of us who grew up in abusive homes ever truly purge that tendency.

I am lucky that I finally built a wonderful life for myself. I am married to an incredibly kind, gentle man. The only time he raises his voice or really swears heavily is when he is getting frustrated by a home repair. In those moments, I sometimes have full blown panic attacks. Just from a nice man muttering some swears and having a tense voice because the diy is going poorly. I can’t help that it takes me right back to the sound of my parents fighting. I’m middle aged and have lived more years out of their home than in. I’ve buried my mother. I should be passed it, but I’m not.

@NoGoodAnswers you have been told by many victims of parental DV how damaging it is. Please do not confuse your children's reaction to their father with their likely lived experiences. From years of working with children who are victims of DV- they will love both parents. An over loving reaction to the abuser is often about trying to maintain the status quo and/or the abuser being the 'fun parent' to undermine the victim.

Trust me, the children will know, and they will hear it.
You staying will teach them that this is what “normal” marriage is like. This is far worse than you divorcing

Sorry but you're clearly choosing not to hear what everyone on here is saying. You know victims of abuse - even indirect victims, because that's what your children are, can "light up" when they see their parent etc etc. That doesn't mean it's all roses and sunshine & the family situation is not having a devastating impact on their emotional well-being.

Perhaps you should do some reading about the impact of DV on children, adverse childhood experiences and so on. They don't have a choice but to live in this household. You are the adult and you have to make a decision. Put their needs and well-being first. Staying in an abusive marriage "for the sake of the children" is not that & will likely have devastating consequences later down the line.

@NoGoodAnswers I heard. I'm now 60 and still remember.

Please don't do this to your children or yourself.

The abuse is far worse. No comparison
The children you are talking about who are self harming and off the rails post divorce, likely have a whole lot more going on than just the fact their parents live in separate houses. Just like when your children are spending years in therapy later, it will be for more than just a possible divorce. They are probably too terrified to act anything other than delighted when they see their father. To be honest, even your description of that is unnatural. In a smooth and functional family unit, that kind of OTT honeymoon reaction to seeing the person they live with isn’t common.

Ultimately if YOU aren’t ready to face leaving and don’t have that courage yet, that’s totally fine. It’s an incredibly hard thing to do. Just stop lying to yourself and pretending it’s because it will be hard for the children. Own the fact you aren’t ready. Get into some
therapy, build up your support network with friends etc, and then one day you might be.

Don't be naive.
My parents didn't argue in front of us.
We sat upstairs in bed hearing the shouting, banging and crying.
Divorce hurts but living in a house where parents argue is worse.

@NoGoodAnswers I am sorry that you are going through this.

My parents fought when I was a child. They didn't think that I knew, but I did and it has left deep scars on my mental health. In some ways I am resilient but I am a classic example of someone who grew up feeling unsafe and anxious about the people who loved me most.

The feeling of being unsafe came from knowing that my primary caregivers were arguing / fighting. It rocked my stability and the knock on effects have had a lasting effect on my life.

Once they separated I felt so so much safer and more settled. For a period of time I felt close to both of them and rightly or wrongly I didn't really blame my dad and am still close to him. I guess I've never been sure which of them was at fault,

Their separation was a good thing for me.

A few years later my mum began a new relationship which became turbulent soon after we had all moved in together. I wasn't able to cope this time. I shut down and struggled with mutism. I lived with my grandma after that. I remember feeling a weight lifting off my shoulders when I moved to her house knowing that I could sleep at bedtime without risk of fighting.

Sending you much love. I know this must be incredibly hard.

Just because your children appear to adore their father it doesn't mean they don't know what is happening and/or aren't being impacted by it. They may even be making an extra effort with him to try to keep everything on an even keel and to protect you.

Try imagining them as grownups and finding out that you stayed in an abusive marriage for their sake. Wouldn't they be horrified?

I'm sure you will also be in a better place to parent well if you are happy, safe and not living with a sense of dread. I'm sure your feelings will be impacting them, children are very attuned to their mothers' emotions.

People are unanimously telling you to leave but you're obviously not in a place to listen right now, and I totally get that. Would finances allow for you to seek the input of a professional? Make an appointment to discuss it with a child psychologist perhaps? Book it in a fake name if you're worried matter being taken out of your hands. But I think getting an expert view might be very helpful.

Your children will also learn appeasement behaviour where they try and smooth the waters because they think it will help. It won’t help because the dysfunction is between you and DH. They will try nevertheless but it’s not something they should do. 😕

They definitely hear and are terrified. Coming from someone who's childhood was the same. My parents stayed together and nothing has changed 50 years later.

I have no doubt that your children love their father. But they also love you and know that he abuses you @NoGoodAnswers. Have you ever thought that they might be so effusive in their love for him to try to protect you?

They may not see the abuse first hand, but they know it's happening and it is affecting them directly.

I wonder about your own background and your own childhood, OP. Was it similar? Because you seem to be looking at your children's lives from a very one-dimensional perspective. Almost as if you are primed to think a man hitting his wife won't really affect his children. Those of us who grew up in homes where this was unthinkable can see it differently.

First of all of course your children love their father. Most children are desperate to love their parents and will do so no matter what.

Second, have you thought at all of what your children are absorbing about what is a normal home life. Even if you successfully hide the sound of the fighting and the few slaps (thus far), do you really think they don't know the tension between you. I assure you that faking normal behaviour can be seen by children. Have your children ever seen you and dh having an argument? mine have because we have normal arguments that don't require closed doors and gratitude that the neighbours live far away enough not to hear. So they learned how to have a disagreement with a loved one.

Honestly OP I think you are not in the place to make any right decisions - what you think is acceptable is so far beyond the norm. And ditto your husband. Why does he think it is ok to slap around his wife? Why do you think this is a good example for your children.

I would urge you to leave but you clearly aren't there yet. Instead I urge you to seek out some help for yourself - therapy to make you see just how you are living and how the choices you are making will affect your kids for their whole lives.

And could you just lose the idea that your children don't know what is going on. It is like an alcoholic thinking no one knows about the sneaked drinks. They do know. And you know one of them might tell a friend or a teacher some day soon. And when that happens and the responsible person reports it - well your fantasy that no one knows will come to a very abrupt end.

Leave. My mum never did. By 13 I was telling her she should, by 15 I was begging her to. By the time I was an adult I was offering to drive round flats and lend her money for a deposit. He didn't actually hospitalise her either, until he did. But I was always aware that we (then she) wasn't safe and that feeling - the we aren't safe, the walking on eggshells, it stays with you.