You're not working class!

[Womeninthesequel]

Ridiculous conversation with an NCT acquaintance - we as a group were discussing the cost of living crisis and it was mentioned that working class families are really going to struggle. He scoffed and said "not all working class families, we're going to be fine." To which I goggled, and said "you're not working class!" He looked cross and said "of course I am, I grew up on a council estate, my dad was a binman."

This is true, he definitely is from a working class background, but he went to university, then med school, is now a senior surgeon doing mainly private practice, he makes six figures (which he'll tell anyone who walks past him) and his house is currently on the market for £1.2mil! He's not working class! This was pointed out to him (not by me) and he was vastly offended. He seems to genuinely believe that his upbringing means he'll always be working class, but that's not right, right? Class isn't innate, is it?

He's a bit of a dick in general, but this has raised a wider conversation at home. DH is from a working class background and is now uni educated and a professional and feels he's now middle class, so is confused by the idea that he's not.

Good for him. I agree with him. I can't stand the faux snobbery about class it's bollix a man made construct

I really wasn't going to come back to this thread but @Eastangular2000 you are just pushing on with those stereotypes aren't you? Are you genuinely sneering at sociology as an academic discipline, and also claiming that the study of social stratification and class doesn't fit into it anyway? I certainly don't claim to be an expert in the area, but all you are bringing to this discussion is anecdotes and personal beliefs based on what exactly? "I don't believe it so it can't be true"

There are plenty of posters on this thread who say they are working class and who are adamant that if your parents are WC then you are too. There's a poster further down the thread who's WC, as defined by themselves, who seems to think that if you don't have a posh accent then you must be WC. Even if you're a doctor or a lawyer. So no it's not the "hybrid MC" that are making those assumptions. Not on this thread anyway.

Of course you can live a middle class lifestyle with a working class upbringing it is the disassociation that is annoying and insulting to wc people.

Through years of conscious sneering the mc have had a superior complex towards the mc.

It's unfortunate when loved one's and old friends put themselves into a world unknown to their loved ones through denying their heritage like it is a dirty smell or sneering at their taste in items.

It's perfectly okay to be successful happy without the labels and insistence you're in a different league than the people who you were part of.

Just be yourself.
It's tiring labelling everything especially when it discriminates against a great group of people.

No I am not sneering at sociology as an academic discipline I was disagreeing with @AviatorMama who seemed to be holding you up as an infallible authority on the subject on the basis that you have studied sociology at some point! I am aware that this is not a claim you have made. It’s not I don’t believe it so it can’t be true it’s more ‘I don’t believe that people make judgements about class
on a day to day basis, using the very narrow parameters used in a formal academic paper’ I am sure you can see the difference. Of course maybe I am in the minority and everyone else has a clear set of academically rigorous parameters that they apply to all interactions, but somehow I doubt it.

The reason I feel it's important to understand the correct sociological definition of class, is that it reduces 'othering'. I wish we didn't have a class system (people are people) but we do sadly; so bearing that in mind, it's about damage limitation for me. The incorrect idea that you're born into a class and there you, and your family, remain is incredibly tribal. The idea that being WC or MC is to be part of a strict inpenetrable club is hugely 'othering' of anyone outside of said club. Reducing class down to occupation and education etc, in a way makes less fuss of perceived difference, and helps society address the important issue of income and opportunity inequality and all its corresponding challenges. It's absolutely possible to have both working class and middle class members of the same family.

Class is all over the world I discussed this with my friend from Zimbabwe it's all over the world. You may not like it but it's not going to change

In the anthropology book, 'Watching the English', class was described, l believe by what your taste is, not finances. As in, an upper middle class person has wooden floors and fabric sofas for eg. It was funny that the lowest working class and the most upper class tier were compared, as they both loved gambling and may be more idle, if l recall correctly. 7 classes were listed, l think. Now panick unfolds in the middle class, which level am l? The middles most concerned with socia mobility.
No a surgeon is not working class. His roots yes, but not since Uni and top job, in my opinion. Social mobility is possible for the few, and meritocracy is a lie.

Gosh, I really disliked that book. If it could be described as “anthropology”, that description should definitely be prefixed with “pop”. The working class were loud mouth yobs, Al Murray Pub Landlord types, all the poshos were Edward Fox. It’s ages since I read it but I remember it being really two dimensional.

What, or which, sociological theories are people arguing about? Do we have a link?

People usually bring up the social grade tables, featuring the C2s and so on, on the class threads. That's only occupation based, obviously.

MC is not just your job. There's many people that have been privately educated but they are not doctors.... and doing ordinary jobs. Does that take away their MC status? No it doesn't! You could be MC and work in Tesco! Perhaps they were privately schooled but just didn't make it high flying..... it happens IRL.

You can argue about correct definition all day, but I think we can all agree that anyone who regards their class status as a badge of honour is a dickhead.

If the privately educated child of a doctor and a professor decided - quite rationally, all considering - that university and all its debt was a mug’s game and that most doctors and professors are ultimately incredibly stressed and overworked, and that they’d rather learn a trade or vocation instead; I doubt the resultant hairdresser or plumber would be considered middle class. This thread demonstrates that people who still care about class would automatically ‘read’ “plumber” or “hairdresser” and assign class accordingly.

MC is not just your job. There's many people that have been privately educated but they are not doctors.... and doing ordinary jobs. Does that take away their MC status? No it doesn't! You could be MC and work in Tesco! Perhaps they were privately schooled but just didn't make it high flying..... it happens IRL.

This is true! That's why, as I said way back in the thread, you can have an upper class, unemployed person living in council accommodation. Class is not just linked to occupation, or wealth.

The people who seem to think your job defines your class would define them as working class, I personally wouldn’t.

@Eastangular2000 and @AviatorMama your argument is interesting to read. I have such a stereotypically MC life but don’t see myself as MC at all!

My dc go to private school but I don’t feel judged by other parents because I’m not pretending to be anything that I’m not. I don’t fit neatly into their middle class world but I don’t particularly want to. It doesn’t mean I haven’t made friends and people are very friendly, but I have a regional accent and have very WC parents so I feel I am still WC, despite having 3 degrees and living in a nice place! I did go to grammar school but I think more WC class people did in the 80s/90s when we didn’t have tutoring. My parents ended up well off but that’s because they saved hard whilst working in very WC jobs.

My job has some degree of ‘social status’ where I live but I still don’t think anyone thinks I’m pretending to be MC.
My children fit in here much more than me and we have a good income, nice house etc so we don’t stand out as different on the surface. Maybe they’ll be classed as MC when they are older (but hopefully they also won’t be that bothered!)

There's something unique about the class conversation in Britain though. In most parts of the world it's completely accepted that it's about occupation etc. In America and elsewhere it's mostly based on income. It's only here that we'd be having this conversation. As mentioned up thread, it's also the only place you'd find very obviously middle class people insisting they're working class. I've literally never encountered that anywhere else.

@Womeninthesequel hmm I dunno. I heard someone else speak on other parts of the world but tbh unless you've actually lived there yourself or have family members you don't know what actually goes on. I doubt it's only UK that's just having this debate again as us on this debate why would it be? Same sort of factors come into play.

For me I don't know enough about America and its far too complex with the different laws in certain states.... so it's no comparison that I would make as I don't have enough knowledge.

@ComtesseDeSpair ahhh but in my eyes that person could be a hairdresser and still be very much MC. They may not hold a fancy job title but perhaps they earn a decent wack.... and send their kids to the local private schools they attended..or perhaps the state school because dad gave his daughter a decent deposit or perhaps grandparents helped towards. It's background. MC isn't wiped out just because all members are not holding a Dr's title. The local state school may be good enough because the hairdresser lives in a MC area..... despite being state school it could be just as good as private depending where you live. * *

Many plumbers and electricians will earn excellent wages... my friend was shocked and I had to point this out to her.... it unravelled because she told me her cousins attend private school. I pointed out to her that those jobs are well paid just not as highly respected! Class is a funny thing.* *

Many plumbers and electricians will earn excellent wages..

Those I know of, through my voluntary work, are claiming supplementary benefits (if that's the correct term) like tax and universal credit. Definitely not excellent wages.

Working class-definitely 😎

But it really isn't!!! There's a strange belief in equivalence going on. When would I have been upper middle/middle class? If I had become a top criminal barrister? If I had pursued a career in journalism? What about Oxbridge? And a second degree? Regardless of my varied career choices, I was born working class and still identify as this, it's who I am, it has nothing to do with my income or occupation.
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Depends what you're doing for a living. If you're now in a top profession, you're middle class. Pretty much all sociologists in the land would say so. Regardless of your background. That's not a belief, that's a sociological fact.

By the way, downward mobility is equally possible. There are many things that can disadvantage a person in life. Obviously an economically deprived background is a huge disadvantage in our crazy society. But other things can happen to present major challenges, and set a person on a very difficult course. Trauma and mental illness are two that particularly come to mind. In fact, in the world of mental health, it's well known that people suffering severe mental illness are nearly always on a trajectory of economic and social decline. If able to work at all, working life can be sporadic and often unskilled and poorly paid. Poverty, whatever the cause, is always equally not the person's fault. There's always a reason, and people who are facing serious challenges here and now, are equally deserving of compassion and support.
That's why understanding of the correct sociological definition of class is so very important. Labelling a zero hours worker renting a room in a house share middle class, and a doctor working class (regardless of respective earlier backgrounds) is potentially extremely dangerous, if we're to address inequality in a meaningful way.

I find this concept most interesting. Is it possible to go down as well as up? Upper class become middle or even working class in one or two generations?

I live in a place where this is a thing. Inherited money has all but run out, and now they are slipping into financial obscurity and can not afford the cultural capital, private schools, stately piles they have always had. What happens then?
Do the children become middle or working class?
Given many slip into mediocre non professional jobs are they still even middle class?