You're not working class!

[Womeninthesequel]

Ridiculous conversation with an NCT acquaintance - we as a group were discussing the cost of living crisis and it was mentioned that working class families are really going to struggle. He scoffed and said "not all working class families, we're going to be fine." To which I goggled, and said "you're not working class!" He looked cross and said "of course I am, I grew up on a council estate, my dad was a binman."

This is true, he definitely is from a working class background, but he went to university, then med school, is now a senior surgeon doing mainly private practice, he makes six figures (which he'll tell anyone who walks past him) and his house is currently on the market for £1.2mil! He's not working class! This was pointed out to him (not by me) and he was vastly offended. He seems to genuinely believe that his upbringing means he'll always be working class, but that's not right, right? Class isn't innate, is it?

He's a bit of a dick in general, but this has raised a wider conversation at home. DH is from a working class background and is now uni educated and a professional and feels he's now middle class, so is confused by the idea that he's not.

Definitely not — though after moving from the north to the southeast, I did come across people making different class-based assumptions about me, apparently because of my regional accent. It doesn't really matter whether people here think of me as working class or middle class, there's lots of both in my extended family so 🤷🏼, but it's a little weird that a regional accent is coded that way.

I wish we didn't have a class system tbh. It somehow reduces people
100% agree.

Simple way of telling the classes apart:

Working class = "would of"
Middle class = "would have"

It does seem to be a badge of honour with some people, however MC their job/income/lifestyle, to claim to be working class - and to feign horror at the idea of being labelled MC, as if it means you have some very nasty infectious disease.

Definitely. Totally agree. But it doesn't change the fact that pretty much every sociologist in the land would describe them as middle class. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it's not a big deal. It just is what it is, a fact.

‘It does seem to be a badge of honour with some people, however MC their job/income/lifestyle, to claim to be working class -’

the reason I don’t like being called MC despite having a MC income now is because it’s generally MUCH harder to get ahead in life when you’re from a deprived background.
I have a lot more respect for WC kids who get to Uni etc than I do for MC kids with their more privileged background.
but that’s my bias. Just as MC + people may consider WC people ‘chavs’

What's wrong with identifying as working class? Working class shouldn't be looked down upon. The problem these days is too many people confuse money with class when that's outdated. I grew up working class and have a better lifestyle than most of my 'middle' friends. I'm not saying I have lots of money, i just have a good attitude to life and I'm not scared to use money to enjoy life to the fullest. You are being a snob by suggesting a surgeon can't identify as working class. It's thoughts like this that kept working class people in their 'place' years ago. My working class upbringing in a lovely council house street in the 70s/80s was filled with families like my own; decent, moralistic, educated. My dad worked hard and my mum stayed at home then had part time jobs. We ate out every Saturday night, went to museums and theatres, always went on holiday every year, coastal England or Scotland or later on Spain, Portugal, Italy. My parents were neither rich nor poor but because my dad was a manual worker we were working class. I had an idyllic childhood that could not have been happier. I'm proud of my upbringing and the values I was taught.. you work hard for yourself, no-one owes you a living and that is what working class means to me. It also means don't put anyone in a box that they can't have different experiences in life because of their 'class'.

You've already had a biscuit for this comment. Deservedly so. You can see how wrong, and silly, this is on reflection I hope.

Agree with @Idontcareboutthestateofmyhair
Of course the surgeon can identify as working class, I like that they are proud of their background. People are too quick to discard this and often based on arbitrary lifestyle changes. You don't hear of the established middle classes claiming to now be working class during a period of unemployment, a lower position or lower-paid job.

DH and I both professionals, educated, good jobs, nice house but agree we are still WC and our DC are MC. Saying that I had quite a privileged upbringing as my parents had their own business which did well in its day.

But then I find it odd that we are a different "class" to our DC.

I’m from the U.K. but not English and find the entire class system baffling at times! The only reason I even call myself WC is because I live in England and it constantly comes up…

I struggle sometimes with how colleagues and friends I have talk about what I consider ‘normal’ people - I.e. working class. They’re very quick to label people as ‘chavs’ and the equivalent Slurs when really they’re just talking about people who work in supermarkets or as brickies

How are you working class? You are clearly middle class. And if your parents were business owners then it's likely they were too.

If you look at how class is defined in sociological terms, then both you and the OPs friend are absolutely middle class. However if class is a feeling that you have and "self identify" as then you can say your as working class as you like....

No he's really not if he's a consultant. He's MC. He's done brilliantly to succeed coming from a WC background as that would absolutely have made it a much harder journey for him. But he is now officially middle class.

He is working class, his children will be middle class.
It used to go by your fathers job.

No it didn't

sru.soc.surrey.ac.uk/SRU9.html

FFS the British class system was well in place way before anyone even invented Sociology. It is there in every interaction, how you style your hair, what you call your children, how many children you have, how old you are when you have children, what you eat, where you holiday, what time of day you eat etc etc. There are some more general
indicators like parental occupation and income but the actual judgements that people make about what class someone else is, are based on a thousand different things.

@Eastangular2000 sociology most definitely pre-dates the modern social class system. It was a recognised discipline before "working class" was a recognised term.

And your comment doesn't disprove what I said in my previous post.

You should listen to the Thinking Allowed linked to in a earlier post.

If his beliefs, choices and lifestyle is now middle class which I suspect it is, he is middle class. If he was a builder who had made shit tons of money but was still a bit oi oi and lived a working class lifestyle but with money then he could call himself working class.

Shock horror! The class system existed before the ‘working class’ did. Modern academic definitions and understanding of class are a world away from how people judge and interact with each other on a daily basis. Do you think when someone makes a judgement that someone is ‘posh’ or ‘common’ they are all doing it through an academic lens?

@Eastangular2000 no of course I don't. So surely my point stands about your class not being based on that of your parents? An academic lens helps with understanding the class system, what it is and how it evolved. It also helps with understanding how people view themselves and others, and how class and it's perception affects life chances.

Absolutely nothing wrong with identifying as working class, if you're working class; and of course it shouldn't be looked down upon. But that's not the issue here. The issue, is clearly middle class people identifying as working class. It's not snobbery at all to point that out. It's just a statement of fact. If someone used to have brown hair, but now has grey hair, pointing out their grey hairedness doesn't mean you're looking down on brunettes! I realise that's a terrible analogy, but you get my meaning.

Another interesting read (sociology again I'm afraid) that explains how class is defined in modern Britain.

The OPs friend is absolutely MC still!

revisesociology.com/2016/08/04/social-class-definition-introduction/

And @WanderingFruitWonderer no one here is looking down on the WC. But i don't think it's helpful for anyone when some who is clearly now MC insisting that they aren't. He can absolutely hold WC moral and ideals. But that's not what defines his class status, and is disingenuous to those who are WC and who may have very different life chances experiences and opportunities to him.