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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask you to read this cautionary tale of what we're sleepwalking into?

193 replies

AspireMe · 15/09/2022 15:19

unherd.com/2020/10/how-corporations-can-delete-your-existence/

Some people might say she deserved it. Others might disagree.

Some people on here think TWANW. Some corporations might in turn deem that thought as heresy.

Encouraged more and more each day to go digital, paperless and cashless... what are we walking into here?

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DaSilvaP · 03/10/2022 09:52

iwantasandwich · 15/09/2022 15:27

Did your tinfoil hat slip off today?

Heve you ever considered the possibilty that it's your blinkers that are still on?

AspireMe · 03/10/2022 12:50

Another day and another group banned from a fundraising platform and their donations withheld.

Can anyone that was defending this and said it won't happen unless a group is part of/donating to a terrorist group explain why it's happened today to Conservatives for Women? I know a lot of people aren't fans of the Conservatives but they are currently in government and are not, as far as I know, affiliated with terrorists.

twitter.com/CforWomenUK/status/1576144849216364544

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TooBigForMyBoots · 03/10/2022 13:08

I'm definitely not a fan of the Conservatives and absolutely hate Toby Young. This is still scary as fuck.

Have you started a thread in FWR about this @AspireMe? If not, maybe you should. Thanks for the thread.Thanks

DogInATent · 03/10/2022 13:13

The Toadmeister et al can test this in court, but I suspect the ruling from Lee v Ashers Baking Company Ltd and others will support private businesses choosing not to provide services alongside messages they disagree with.

It would be ironic to see Toby and C4W arguing against the Asher ruling.

AspireMe · 03/10/2022 13:20

TooBigForMyBoots · 03/10/2022 13:08

I'm definitely not a fan of the Conservatives and absolutely hate Toby Young. This is still scary as fuck.

Have you started a thread in FWR about this @AspireMe? If not, maybe you should. Thanks for the thread.Thanks

It was actually a post I replied to on a thread on FWR that prompted me to create this thread, and I know it's been linked a few times so I don't think I should make another one.

It's chilling, isn't it? And people early on were cheerleading it, not realising/understanding that once it's a precedent, the same thing can happen to anybody.

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beastlyslumber · 03/10/2022 14:52

Can anyone that was defending this and said it won't happen unless a group is part of/donating to a terrorist group explain why it's happened today to Conservatives for Women?

The people defending it are idiots. They're not going to show up here again to admit they were wrong.

I suspect the ruling from Lee v Ashers Baking Company Ltd and others will support private businesses choosing not to provide services alongside messages they disagree with

I can't see how that case would apply here. Especially after paypal has admitted they were in the wrong and restored the accounts. There's a big difference between refusing to send a message you disagree with, and preventing another person from sending that message themselves.

TheClogLady · 03/10/2022 15:57

I thought the cake thing ended up with:

‘you DO have to sell x a cake, you just don’t have to write their political slogan on it and the customer can add the slogan themselves later if they want to’?

when applied to PayPal surely that would look something like:

‘you DO need to supply a payment processing service, and you aren’t required to write any slogans so how the fuck is the cake case even relevant? This is a weird and nonsensical cul de sac of an argument that you clearly haven’t thought all the way through’

Softplayhooray · 03/10/2022 16:21

Of the many things I could get wound up about right now, a right wing fascist hate filled lunatic not being able to access her current account isn't one of them.

beastlyslumber · 03/10/2022 16:24

Softplayhooray · 03/10/2022 16:21

Of the many things I could get wound up about right now, a right wing fascist hate filled lunatic not being able to access her current account isn't one of them.

Spot the person who hasn't read the thread. Or the article for that matter.

DogInATent · 03/10/2022 16:36

TheClogLady · 03/10/2022 15:57

I thought the cake thing ended up with:

‘you DO have to sell x a cake, you just don’t have to write their political slogan on it and the customer can add the slogan themselves later if they want to’?

when applied to PayPal surely that would look something like:

‘you DO need to supply a payment processing service, and you aren’t required to write any slogans so how the fuck is the cake case even relevant? This is a weird and nonsensical cul de sac of an argument that you clearly haven’t thought all the way through’

Here is my hate-filled message.
Now support me via this Paypal/Ko-Fi/Patreon link.

If the message and the link appear together, the cake slogan rule can be applied.

They can always do a Trump and create their own platform. The Toadmeister and W4C aren't some oppressed minority lacking a platform for their voice, they're the establishment bleating that theirs isn't the only voice ffs.

TheClogLady · 03/10/2022 16:36

beastlyslumber · 03/10/2022 16:24

Spot the person who hasn't read the thread. Or the article for that matter.

This is why Twitter had to add that ‘are you SURE you want to tweet this out into the universe without actually reading it first?’ prompt, isn’t it?

TheClogLady · 03/10/2022 16:42

DogInATent · 03/10/2022 16:36

Here is my hate-filled message.
Now support me via this Paypal/Ko-Fi/Patreon link.

If the message and the link appear together, the cake slogan rule can be applied.

They can always do a Trump and create their own platform. The Toadmeister and W4C aren't some oppressed minority lacking a platform for their voice, they're the establishment bleating that theirs isn't the only voice ffs.

And the answer to that is surely rather simple, provide an alternative ‘pay’ button that isn’t branded all over with the company logo.

I bet even the naicest companies would prefer that version, which would be a spectacular backfire for PayPal.

A shiny new bit of legislation that states that you can’t refuse a customer service on the grounds of political belief will absolve PayPal of any perceived guilt by association and all their competitors will have to do the same - so obvs that’s the real way forward.

Otherwise the bitter-end result is pensioners sitting in the dark having had their utility supply cut off because they had the audacity to vote for Brexit.

beastlyslumber · 03/10/2022 16:45

If the message and the link appear together, the cake slogan rule can be applied.

Erm... I'm going to have say noooo you're not understanding this at all.

The Toadmeister and W4C aren't some oppressed minority lacking a platform for their voice, they're the establishment bleating that theirs isn't the only voice ffs.

How are they "the establishment"? Do you have any idea what the Free Speech Union does?

Besides which, there's a principle at stake. You don't like their ideas (despite not having a clue what they are) so you're fine with them being censored. But when they censor YOU for your ideas, you won't have anyone to stick up for you because you've already banned them.

DogInATent · 03/10/2022 16:51

TheClogLady · 03/10/2022 16:42

And the answer to that is surely rather simple, provide an alternative ‘pay’ button that isn’t branded all over with the company logo.

I bet even the naicest companies would prefer that version, which would be a spectacular backfire for PayPal.

A shiny new bit of legislation that states that you can’t refuse a customer service on the grounds of political belief will absolve PayPal of any perceived guilt by association and all their competitors will have to do the same - so obvs that’s the real way forward.

Otherwise the bitter-end result is pensioners sitting in the dark having had their utility supply cut off because they had the audacity to vote for Brexit.

You can't conceal the company that's processing that payment. That would be illegal and very dangerous for online safety.

A shiny new bit of legislation that states that you can’t refuse a customer service on the grounds of political belief will absolve PayPal of any perceived guilt by association and all their competitors will have to do the same - so obvs that’s the real way forward.

Would you apply this to every business? Sole traders like myself? People with a side hustle? Perhaps even individuals - unemployed vegans shouldn't refuse a job in an abattoir if that's the vacancy the Job Centre has. Where's the line where this would and wouldn't apply? Maybe it's based on turnover or number of employees.. maybe you've another idea, or maybe you haven't thought it through.

beastlyslumber · 03/10/2022 17:00

Would you apply this to every business? Sole traders like myself? People with a side hustle?

Yes? Otherwise you're saying it's okay to discriminate on grounds of belief. One person's money should be as good as the next person's? Doesn't mean you can't turn down a customer. Just means you can't turn them down for being a tory/black/female etc.

Perhaps even individuals - unemployed vegans shouldn't refuse a job in an abattoir if that's the vacancy the Job Centre has.

No, it's the other way round. It's saying you can't force an abbatoir to not have a vegan client. Or you can't allow a vegan to not sell vegan sausages to a carnivore. Forcing people into certain lines of work would need a different piece of legislation. I'm not sure how well protected people are currently in that respect, but it's a different point to the one you're making here.

TheClogLady · 03/10/2022 17:02

You can't conceal the company that's processing that payment. That would be illegal and very dangerous for online safety.

Don’t be daft, you put on the next page. So page 1, company name and plain button, click through, page 2 payment processor name.

company name and (and totally legal but currently unfashionable views) payment processor not directly next to each other. Payment processor does not catch cooties.

A shiny new bit of legislation that states that you can’t refuse a customer service on the grounds of political belief will absolve PayPal of any perceived guilt by association and all their competitors will have to do the same - so obvs that’s the real way forward

Would you apply this to every business? Sole traders like myself? People with a side hustle? Perhaps even individuals - unemployed vegans shouldn't refuse a job in an abattoir if that's the vacancy the Job Centre has

Yes. Yes.Yes.
No, don’t be silly, the company aren’t being told to actually do something icky, they are just being told that when they do the same thing they always do (make and flog cakes, process payments) that they can’t refuse service to someone whose views they disagree with. Just like you can’t refuse someone because they are black or gay or Jewish or insert protected characteristic here.

Where's the line where this would and wouldn't apply? Maybe it's based on turnover or number of employees.. maybe you've another idea, or maybe you haven't thought it through?

it would apply to absolutely every single company that sell things or provides services unless a carve out exists in equalities law (eg you can’t compel a Muslim woman, or any woman, to wax a ballsack)

The frame work already exists under the 2010 Equality act, it just needs a little tweak as to how it’s enforced.

If you are a sole trader and currently refuse service to people who hold perfectly legal views that you just don’t agree with, you could already be vulnerable to a court case. You should probably check that out.

Hold on and I will find you a link.

TheClogLady · 03/10/2022 17:07

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/guidance-businesses

categories are behind the drop down menu at the top (see screenshot)

To ask you to read this cautionary tale of what we're sleepwalking into?
AspireMe · 03/10/2022 19:30

@DogInATent
Here is my hate-filled message.
Now support me via this Paypal/Ko-Fi/Patreon link.

  1. I don't think you can class the Free Speech Union or C4W as 'hate-filled'.
  2. If it's purely down to a morality issue, why does at least one of those aforementioned companies currently accept and process payments for pro-paedophilia groups?
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