To not (yet) understand the purpose of pronouns in emails?

[Bobby80]

I'm aware this is a sensitive topic for some but I'm looking for some education on this. I didn't want to post in the gender issues boards as I thought I might come across as very ignorant and maybe I am! I also wanted a broad 'audience'.

Pronouns in emails- what's the purpose? Should I have my pronouns in my work email signature? We have no guidance on it at work so some people do and some don't. I don't feel the need personally to have a pronoun in mine but wouldn't want to offend others. Is the purpose of it for the send ie me or for the receiver or both? Is it really meaningful or a box ticking exercise?

Wow I can't believe the responses I'm getting on this. I never said in my post that my friend speaks for all trans people - I was just giving one viewpoint.
I also never said that she thinks EVERYONE should do it - just that she likes it when people does as she feels more comfortable sharing her own pronouns.

I completely understand why some people (particularly women in male-dominated industries) prefer not to advertise that their gender.

I was simply trying to give a viewpoint from someone who is quietly trying to live their life as a transwoman in order to give an alternative viewpoint in the GC echo chamber - not all transwoman are militant TRAs just like not all GC people are militant TERFs.

If you think speaking up about the erosion of language about women and the erosion of single sex protections is anti-trans, then you are admitting there is a clash of rights. Which means we should talk about it.

To coin a phrase, the people with the power are the people you aren't allowed to challenge.

I have a first name which is unisex. People who only deal with me by email often don’t know what sex I am and in the early days of my career they always assumed that I was a man.

It didn’t bother me as they always treated me better when they thought I was male.

Even now, women are disadvantaged in the workplace when they are compelled to disclose their sex. Many senior women use their initials to avoid this eg Dr J S Smith.

but on mumsnet saying you don’t think pronouns are that big of a deal marks you out as a enemy to your sex or some shit. If you aren’t frothing at the mouth at the very idea you aren’t doing it right

I think you missed the memo - we're old and baffled by modern ways now, not frothing and angry

Or perhaps I'm out of date and we've moved back again - I've seen some ridiculous stuff about how violent and dangerous us middle aged women are about various issues recently

Hi @Stompythedinosaur

I can't speak for the poster you replied to but for myself:

When people add pronouns to "support trans people" they are supporting the belief that the difference between men and women is mental rather than physical, and therefore they are supporting the reallocation of resources set up to help the female-bodied thrive in a sexist society from those female-bodied people to those with a "female mind", whatever that is, and the undefining of female-bodied people as a social group with their own rights, concerns, priorities deserving of a political voice.

As a female-bodied person, it harms me to lose those resources and that political voice, an it harms me to be redefined as a person with a female mind when that is not something I identify as, simply because the words I have always used, and society has always used, for the female bodied have been redefined without my consent.

I am very happy to listen to trans people with respect to their experiences, so I know trans people do not speak with one voice. I find it sad and strange that the people who wish to appropriate female words and spaces do not feel any need to respect my needs and experience, and that of the many, many women like me.

I hope you realise that I am not telling you whether to put pronouns in your email or not. That is up to you. I am simply making sure you are clear that it is harmful to people like me who understand ourselves to be female but do not have this "female brain". What you do with that knowledge is up to you.

HTH.

Oh hell no

If people WANT TO they should
Dont force allothers to follow suit just because of wokeness.

My name is "bella"
People would know i am a she /her

If i wanted people to think I was an it
I would add 'they/them' to my email

Whilst on the topic
Who on earth came up with They Them. Jezus. Surely another term could have been created....

Surely another term could have been created

oh don't worry they've created lots of terms 😉

Yet weirdly not one that sinply means "female bodied". To even suggest such a word is meaningful and needed by the approximately half of the population that is, well, female-bodied is apparently an act of despicable hate. I wonder why that should be?

The well-known story of the two workers in Philadelphia, Martin and Nicole, who (accidentally at first and then deliberately as an experiment) swapped email identities a few years ago is very instructive, as I think it is used by pronoun zealots to support their case. And yet it shows the very opposite of what they're trying to point out.

As soon as people thought they were dealing with a woman, they behaved differently -- more obstructively and more patronisingly. For a lot of women, it is positively disadvantageous in non-face-to-face work interactions to reveal their sex if they don't have to.

And if by chance this is the first time you've ever heard this story, you automatically know Martin is the fella and Nicole is the woman, without my having to tell you.

To even suggest such a word is meaningful and needed by the approximately half of the population that is, well, female-bodied is apparently an act of despicable hate. I wonder why that should be?

Its a great puzzlement alright

Using pronouns is basically the same as putting a little gif of a Stonewall trans/ pride flag in your email. It shows credence to gender ideology and signals that the emailer doesn’t care about the drive to make women’s prisons/ sports/ rape crisis centres/ single sex spaces mixed sex. It signals the emailer doesn’t think women should have boundaries and suggests they lack critical thinking skills.

I have, over the course of my career, encountered many colleagues etc who have unisex names. I can’t think of any occasion where I actually needed to know for sure what their sex was when communicating re our work.

Usually only difference between male Sam and female Sam in a professional environment is that male Sam inexplicably gets paid more.

I wish I could send an annonymous link of this thread to one of the associate directors where I work who is a man (I used to work i the same office, so I know he is a man) with a traditional man's name but feels the need to put he/him in his email signature.

Cringe

I have a name that can be male or female. It helps prevent the idiots who like to argue whether I am male or female.
I also had a close colleague who is a trans man. It helped support him.
I had contact with around 100 people a week. A good amount of the time I couldn't tell from their name whether they were male or female. I would often have reason to mention them in other communications. Knowing their pronoun helps with this. I can't remember hundreds of peoples pronouns, but I can quickly check an email.

Oh, and I am a very inclusive feminist. I await the childish MN name calling.

My DC's headteacher literally has 'Mr.' in his email address and yet still puts he/him in his sign off.

He/him wasn't very happy when I sent him the Sex Matters schools document.

How does it help though. Communication can only take place of everyone is aware of the meanings of the words. If sone are working from the basis that pronouns are sex based and some are working from the basis they are gender based then people are working from different pages.

You could refer to Sam as him but the email couod go to someone who knows Sam and knows they are female so how does it remotely help.

If you had to go to the fifth floor to hand deliver a letter to Sam he/him from accounting you would still l quite possibly have no idea if you were looking fir a man ir a woman.

Renders the whole thing pointless.

I have a unisex name too. I dont care if people think I'm a bloke. Why wouod it matter to me.

I don't state my pronouns. Besides, people can't even reply to an email which clearly spells my name without misspelling it. I doubt that they'd check my pronoun. I'm also not offended if they get my pronoun wrong.

I think this is a key point. Why do people need to know my GI or lack thereof to communicate? Why this identity statement rather than others? My political affiliation is more relevant to my identity than what others might think gender means. Why not state that in an email?

Oh, and I am a very inclusive feminist. I await the childish MN name calling.

I'm not going to call you any names.

But can't you understand how male bodied Martin, insisting on she/her pronouns, might start to break down the barriers on more significant issues like single sex spaces?

If we start to blur the boundaries of sex/gender and truth with pronouns, it becomes much more difficult to establish them when they are needed for woman's safety.

No one is explaining why you need to know if someone is male or female.

This is a good point. Pronouns on work emails are becoming a thing. As far as I know they aren't used by anyone transitioning, but to show an inclusive workplace. But, I'm sure that's just a matter of time.... what hope she next e.g. with use of bathrooms? I'm interested to her peoples experience if this, and other knock on issues that have consequences started from using pronouns.

I work in an historically male dominated profession, but I do have a very clearly female name. This has led to me being patronised, and sidelined and also in some cases harassed, (albeit that was some time ago now), which would likely not have happened were I not a woman.
If I had a unisex name in this profession, it would more than likely have been a bonus.

Wow Im suprised how far I've read and not seen one response explaining my understanding was that with rise of gender fluidity and more people identifying S a gender that may not be obvious rather than just those people stating their pronouns more people doing so normalises it

If people want to do it then it's up to them. It looks a bit political to me though and marks them out as belonging to a certain club. A club that has shown itself to be narcissistic, abusive and aggressive. I wouldn't align myself with that. I find it helpful when people do put their pronouns as they then identify themselves as people I can avoid.

But why is it your work colleagues job to validate 1 of hundreds if identities?

It would be like someone asking to be greeted as Sally, vegetarian dog owner and mother of 2 eveyr time you spoke to her .

When in reality that is only important to Sally. No one else needs to know.or give a shit.

By all.means identify as you like. But ita your problem.not your offices