To not (yet) understand the purpose of pronouns in emails?

[Bobby80]

I'm aware this is a sensitive topic for some but I'm looking for some education on this. I didn't want to post in the gender issues boards as I thought I might come across as very ignorant and maybe I am! I also wanted a broad 'audience'.

Pronouns in emails- what's the purpose? Should I have my pronouns in my work email signature? We have no guidance on it at work so some people do and some don't. I don't feel the need personally to have a pronoun in mine but wouldn't want to offend others. Is the purpose of it for the send ie me or for the receiver or both? Is it really meaningful or a box ticking exercise?

I've had a couple of people email me at work (internally) with pronouns. It's a different department and they're not company compulsory but when I see them my first thought is usually they've had some sort of training and think they're being kind.

I would not, it's not being kind in my opinion, it's giving gravitas to the belief of gender ideology which I don't believe in.

If you have a unisex name as a female, there have been studies on this, if you highlighted yourself as female you'll get treated differently. Bad differently. Yes, it shouldn't be the case, but that's reality. So why would you? You're a grown up, an odd misgendering shouldn't matter. Unlike the he/she/they/zir/fae etc believers who descend into toddler tantrums, issue threats of discrimination and insists the offender gets sent off for re-education.

And if you think about it further, if there is a he/she/they/zir/fae believer (and they can believe what they want, they just can't insist I do and must show it) who isn't ready to announce a pronoun, you announcing yours in solidarity makes them feel they have to too, or lie, which could make them feel quite bad.

If you're a fervent believer, they'll be all over your email, every introduction you make, and you're probably going to try and get the team attending compulsory training anyway. Everyone will be well aware what your pronouns are. If you want to be kind, you crack on. Just leave me out of it please, and it'll be fine.

If I see it in someone's email, I assume either narcissist, drone or bullied. Either way it's not a good look.

This. Glad I'm not in a physical office any more as I can't help but roll my eyes.

The Equalities Act notes being transgender as a protected characteristic. I'm not aware of it offering any protection to people who don't believe in gender identity, though I'm happy to learn about this if I am wrong.

You are wrong, as you are wrong about the name of the Equality Act (not "Equalities") and the protected characteristic. It is "gender reassignment". After a high profile court case brought by Maya Forstater, it was confirmed in the court of Appeal that gender critical beliefs were protected under the "religion/belief" PC. It is illegal to discriminate against someone simply for disbelief in gender identity ideology.

I used to work for someone called Denny who put her title in her signature. Otherwise she signed off as Denny Surname and when people wrote back to Title Surname they didn't know if she was a man or woman so she was often referred to as Mr Surname. If she'd been called Jane or Henrietta she wouldn't have had that problem.

The most tolerant people I know IRL and at work are all men
Who put their pronouns on their emails without all this drama and fuss

That would be because it costs men nothing, it's a piece of piss for them to virtue signal. It's not the language men use to describe themselves that is being enforced, not their single sex spaces, services, sports, etc., that are being threatened.

If the men you refer to were truly tolerant they would welcome gender non conforming men into all their spaces, services, sports, etc., and celebrate them as part of the rich diversity of the male sex.

I work with a lot of colleagues who are Indian, as I’m not Indian it’s not immediately obvious sometimes if the name is male or female.

This has genuinely never once been an issue. I don’t need to use pronouns in an email to that person, it doesn’t matter what sex they are at all. If I have a meeting with them, then it obviously becomes clear.

I’ll tell you when it’s not helpful - when some one has she/her pronouns in their sig, you invite them to a meeting and a clearly male voice dials in. Who tf is this person in my meeting? Pre-Teams, my work conferencing software didn’t announce people and you could only use a phone to dial in so you’d get numbers not names. When you’re expecting ‘Ellie’ as the accountable exec and hear a deep bass tone answer it can be disorienting.

That would be because it costs men nothing, it's a piece of piss for them to virtue signal.

There was a good thread about how pronouns on emails makes people think you are somewhat weak and gullible or "kind" (depending on your perspective) if you are a woman but for men it comes across as a dominance display.

I work with a lot of colleagues who are Indian, as I’m not Indian it’s not immediately obvious sometimes if the name is male or female.

I used to work with a lot of people from Korea, China, Japan and Vietnam. As i don't speak any of the languages, or have any clue about names, i generally wrote what i thought was correct and if they were bothered by it they corrected me.

The ones who were most bothered about being addressed correctly put (Ms, Mrs or Mr) in brackets after their name, and were addressed as such. As it turned out, even Korean colleagues can't always know either, based on just a name, so i didn't let it bother me overmuch if i got it wrong.

The Canadian Green Party are providing us with a great cautionary tale about where all this can lead ultimately.

Worth a Google if you want to see how those leading the fight against climate change are actually spending their time.

Yep yep, completely agree.

I have an obviously female name which was also the name of a senior lead in my area of the business. Except this person was a trans woman. This was a few years ago now, and before pronouns were compelled to be in email sigs. I’m 100% certain that this particular person wouldn’t have included pronouns in an email sig, because to them, it’s obvious from their name that they’re a woman so what’s the point?

Incidentally, a couple of times people thought I must be her. Which I didn’t take offence at, as they’d clearly never met either of us and had assumed I was a lot more senior than I was. Stand us side by side and you can tell who’s male or female regardless of name or pronoun.

omg that is just such an embarrassment. I just googled and found an article - some journalist commented it was ‘exactly like satire’ to which the person upset by the misgendering set up a fundraiser ‘against hate’. It’s raised less than $300 and a tenner of it was donated by the journal

It all becomes total nonsense very quickly.

This practice is predicated on pretending that pronouns reference gender not sex. Which I have a huge issue with, but for the purposes of argument, I'll park for the minute.

Hopefully no one is arguing that you can actually change sex. So this is a gender issue.

However there are hundreds of different genders apparently and a whole toy chest of pronouns to mess around with if you're so inclined. Expecting people to remember that you're e/em/eir or whatever, does feel quite self absorbed.

I've been in the workplace for 20 years and never once had an issue with any of this. So quite aside from any role it might have in muddying the waters of sex/gender understanding, it strikes me as a massive waste of everyone's time.

Have you ever paused to consider the possibility that you are in fact spreading propaganda in favour of a tiny micro-minority that acts according to the principle "if I don't like reality, too bad for reality" and wants to impose that delusion on everyone else?
Ever heard of "the road to Hell being paved with good intentions"?

People can't spell my name right in the body text when it is also the start of my e-mail that i've just read out to them down the phone and they've just typed into the To box, so what chance do they have of managing pronouns. I think people who add them to their signatures are a bit unnecessary to be honest, along with most other corporate bullshit that goes in e-mail signatures to be fair.

It's not transphobe just because you say so. Your evidence is women making a stand for women's rights. Which is not evidence at all of anything other than misogyny. Of course those whose privilege is threatened by women not knowing their place insult it. That's how bullies work.

Feel free to give a definition of woman which makes said man other than what I've described. I, and others, have been asking for that for years and TRAs have refused to provide it. Your assertion is that wearing stereotypically female clothing and adopting sya stereotypically female name changes something other than your dress and your name. Asking how is not transphobic. Assering that this makes you a woman is an act of aggression to women.

Actually your comparison of th trans issue to race is shameful. If a white person got dreadlocks and wore African dress and the called themselves a black person there would and has been, ourtage. Stop trying to obfuscate what is really going on. If you have an argument based on reality, make it.

Because it's one of the few sites that allow some people to say the shit they want about trans people with impunity

Mumsnet says very little about Transpeople actually.

But a lot about the importance of preserving sex specific spaces for women who need them. I have to wonder why that wouldn't be important to you?

At this point I'm just happy if people get my name right. I have a name that is the feminine version, there is a masculine version (samuel, Samantha type)
The past 4 years I have never been called samuel so much in my life
I'll go for an appointment and they'll shout "Miss Samuel Pelo" and I'm "the clue is on the fuckin paper in front of you"
My name is not samuel and I would put pronouns if it helps but miss/Mrs doesn't so...

If you want to, then yes.

I have a name that's not obviously feminine if you aren't a native English speaker. I have a colleague who has a name from another culture that is more commonly a woman's name in the UK. Aside from anything to do with trans issues, it's useful then.

Absolutely bloody ridiculous. Over my dead body will I do it.

I also think they're another Woke addition, however there is ONE valid "email" scenario where I can see they may be handy.

If I'm replying to an email and copying in someone else ("Lucy", for example), then I might say something like "when I spoke to Lucy the other day, she said"...

Yes, the sentence structure could change ("Lucy said xxxxxxx when we spoke the other day"), but it just doesn't feel "natural".

I guess a pronoun might help in that case...

I dont go to work to be a prop in someone's game. Someone's gender identity is theirs and theirs alone I am under no obligation to believe it or play along with it. Anyone who sends an email with pronouns is reducing me to nothing but a collection of feelings inside someone's head. Its offensive. I automatically think." knobhead" when I see it.

It costs me nothing to tell people I use the pronouns she/her. A group who are subject to discrimination say it helps them. So I do it.

But what if another group says it contributes to discrimination against them? And ask you not to? And that group have historically - since time immemorial been discriminated against. And are paid less, and have a harder time getting promotion and are mitigating against some of that by appearing to be "not women" in their emails?

It is fine to put pronouns in mails, especially if you are forced to. (not that it is ok to force people to do this) but it is equally fine not to.

You could say "they said "

You could assume she wouldn't actually care if you accidentally got it wrong

Lots of alternatives