to expect people to get their children to vacate seats.

[noonar]

ok, am really not sure what the consensus will be here, so here goes...

dd goes to swimming lessons. there are about 35 children doing classes of different levels. the spectators' are is very hot and cramped. there is v little room for an adult to sit on the floor, and only about 25 seats.

last week, for some reason, there was a large number of siblings watching the lessons with their parents. many of these were occupying a seat. one mum had 2 sons with her. they took up 3 seat. also, a dad let his 2yo have a seat to herself.

meanwhile, i was struggling to keep tabs on my 3yo, while standing, as she edged close to the safety rail between us and poolside.

now, i know children are people too and should be treated with respect but do you think it was fair to allow children to occupy so many seats , in the circs?

Has it all gone nice again?
(peeks head out of bunker where she was desperately trying to work it all out)

This is a bit like a lovely man in my team who finds it very hard to let women walk ahead or open doors for him. It's very nice to have someone so chivalrous around, but it is a bit of a nusance when I am in front and naturally in the best position to open the door, and he still tries to do it. Everyone should try and be considerate to everyone, but only in a sensible way!

nooka, it is just good manners. Like saying please and thank you. Some or in fact most aspects of manners are not strictly speaking necessary. It's not actually necessary to say please or thankyou. It's not necessary to start from the outside and work in with cutlery. It's not necessary to serve white wine with fish and red wine with red meat. It's not necessary to go to funerals. It's not necessary to wait until everyone has been served before eating. It's not necessary to keep the music down in flats.

The list is positively endless. There are so many examples of manners that are neither reciprocal nor necessary for the person being inconvenienced. Yet manners make the world go round, they do really. Children standing up for their elders falls into that sort of category I think.

People who don't teach their children proper manners are damaging and fracturing society. Those children grow up having no respect for other people It really is why our children are roaming the street and vandalising other people's property. They haven't been brought up to appreciate that the world has other people in it, and that society occasionally expects them to be deferential.

Anyhow, nooka and PW, I hope you realise the contribution you are making to youf crime.

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that would be because you have no manners

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Quattro, that's just conflating so many idiosyncratic daft habits/conventions (cutlary??) with this particular gripe. There's just no overlap between (say) using a particular knife for eating a particular fish and treating kids as second-class citizens.

And the extension to a society in crisis is a leetle far-fetched to my mind.

'how is it just 'basic manners' if it's not expected to be reciprocated by adults giving up seats for children? '

Quattro, please address (SueBaroo's very good) point. Is this a form of good manners that self-destructs when one reaches 18?

Back to the bunker, then!

Nah, just don't want teenage tearaway children. I do believe that children are not second-class citizens but if they do not know when they are expected to be deferential (as we all have to be sometimes, even as adults) they do grow up egotistical and unmannerly. IMO

I want my DCs leaping up to give their seats away for adults. I like it that they show consideration for others and know their manners.

It would be even nicer if they did it unprompted, of course, but one can't have everything.

I really don't think it's a second class citizen thing. Admittedly I am going on the difference between me and my 6 year old ds, but he can sit on the floor, take up less room and bounce back up again with complete ease, whereas I'm starting to creak a bit. So I wouldn't expect him to stand for an adult, just to sit somewhere which is likely to be more uncomfortable for him than them.

But some forms of manners do only work one way, don't they? PW.

I don't think it self-destructs at 18. A young, well-muscled 19 year old male with flowing locks should stand up for a 60-something old dear with puffy ankles and a tired expression.

Okay, second-class citizen is a red herring, a poor summary of what I was trying to say below.

Can nobody answer Suebaroo?? That's pretty revealing, then.

I just did

I thought I did too. Good manners to try to minimise discomfort I think.

Discomfort I don't have a problem with (though I might not mean it quite as you do, Tellus), but there does seem to be an assumption on this thread that adults are entitled to sit down, and children bound by some unwritten code of 'manners' to shift for them. THat's what I dislike, and can't see a rationale for.

Of course good manners should be modelled and reciprocated by adults as well as children (it's as TellusMater says, it's just easier for children to sit on the floor). In another situation, I would help a child carry a heavy box through heavy swing doors for example, because I am more able to do that.

And I personally don't think it's too much of a stretch to extend this argument to wider society at all. It's basic stuff - considering others rather than oneself - everyone mucking in to make things more pleasant for everyone else - not just 'me' 'me' 'me' I was here first and everyone else can stuff it. It oils the wheels and is just, well, a bit kinder.

Have just read whole thread and if anyone had asked me to bet on who would make their DCs stand, I would have had my house on Cod and 100x.

Funny

Not sure which way Xenia would blow on this one though

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lennygrrl the seats you mention do indeed say less able to stand than you. And I am less able to stand than your DD, unless she uses crutches or something. If you asked me to move so that your child could sit then you wouldn't get the answer you were expecting.

Assuming you were able bodied, and fit and sitting down and a mother asked you to stand for, let's say, an able bodied and fit 6 year old?

Would you:

(a) Say "Fuck off"

(b) Deliver a lecture on manners in an embarassingly loud voice, finishing with a recommendation for a book

(c) Leap to your feet enthusiastically and pat the (sticky looking) child on the head

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I did read your post and I am not outraged. Surprised yes disappointed even, but certainly not outraged.