to expect people to get their children to vacate seats.

[noonar]

ok, am really not sure what the consensus will be here, so here goes...

dd goes to swimming lessons. there are about 35 children doing classes of different levels. the spectators' are is very hot and cramped. there is v little room for an adult to sit on the floor, and only about 25 seats.

last week, for some reason, there was a large number of siblings watching the lessons with their parents. many of these were occupying a seat. one mum had 2 sons with her. they took up 3 seat. also, a dad let his 2yo have a seat to herself.

meanwhile, i was struggling to keep tabs on my 3yo, while standing, as she edged close to the safety rail between us and poolside.

now, i know children are people too and should be treated with respect but do you think it was fair to allow children to occupy so many seats , in the circs?

OK, will look forward to that.

Ladym - depends on what you think those 'manners' are based on, right? And whether they stand up to rational thought, or whether (as I suspect) they're founded on something less noble and defensible (poor eg as my brain's half asleep - I'm bigger and stronger than you, do as I say - subtext: or I'll force you to do it)

Sue, I scratched your car and spray-painted 'Kill the Pigs' on your garage, didn't you notice?

My mother used to teach someone who had 'Kill the Pigs' tattooed on his forehead. Wazzock.

Or Quattro, if you follow the logic that I'm suggesting might underpin this sort of attitude towards kids, you end up with dictatorship-style structures, based on power, force and fear. Is that any better?

PW, you say 'Huzzah!' and 'wazzock'. I want to be your girlfriend

Kill the pigs? pmsl.

Message withdrawn

I see Sue, it's the double zuzzez that get you is it.

Don't worry about it norkmaiden. I got myself in a right temper about it earlier on, had to go and make a Delia pot-roast to calm down (pot-roast recipe from Delia, not with Delia in). Seems to be a strangely emotive subject - in my case because I hate to be thought rude!

It just seems well, somehow wrong for healthy children to be sitting when adults are standing. Basic manners rather than some ominous subtext of domination of the innocents. Quattro puts it very well.

As I said earlier, its just something I was brought up to do, and my dh also was, so we just pass it on to ds. tbh, I've never given it much thought, other than that its certainly not about power over a child, can't see that at all, it just comes under the heading of manners!!!
(goes away to reconsider but still convinced we're dong the right thing!)

Yes, but how is it just 'basic manners' if it's not expected to be reciprocated by adults giving up seats for children? (Which actually, I have seen a few times, like lennygrrl)

I mean, I expect my children to say Please and thankyou (and my two year old always does [smug]), but that doesn't exempt me from saying those things to them...

'how is it just 'basic manners' if it's not expected to be reciprocated by adults giving up seats for children? '

Sue I spent all afternoon trying to squeeze that thought into a coherent sentence. Thank you.

Also for the kids sake if they're not encouraged to stand for adults half the adults on the bus/train whatever on seeing them comfortably sitting down blissfully unaware that it might be nice if they let the tired middle aged lady next to them have their seat will think them badly brought up and abit selfish. Well I would but then I can be mean on buses.

I just sit on the lap of any child who won't vacate a seat I want.

Sorted.

Good point Sue. These things should be reciprocal - like opening doors for people, and offering to carry things up/down stairs when help is needed. Good manners is to assist when you think it may be required, and then for the other person to accept gratefully, saying thank you and knowing that when they can assist in return (not neccessarily directly, but in principle) they will. I don't expect anyone to open door s for me, but it's nice if they do. The day I start thinking I am entitled to be waited on is not (IMO) a good one.

That older lady on the bus was just down right rude, and setting a bad example to everyone.

Um, why should it matter to the child if someone else is thinking bitchy thoughts about them? More fool that person. I mean I think mean thoughts towards lots of people on the train in the morning - surely that makes me the worse person not them?

(Too late PW I'm all bothered about this now. But chortle at Delia pot!)

Kerala - why is it 'just' basic manners? THat's where I don't follow. Why does a (for eg tired) adult have more right to a seat than a (possibly similarly tired) child? Why should we see it as A Good Thing, as a result, if said kid leaps up for said adult.

Only can be about power structures as far as I can see - anyone have a better explanation I'd be glad to hear it

Message withdrawn

Its not about reciprocation. I think children (young, strong, healthy) should give up seats to adults. Teaches empathy, to be aware of others, gives them a warm glow, makes people like them.

Suppose it is old fashioned but then I was definitely born in the wrong century so bear with me.

But kerala that logic (and there is nothing wrong with it per say) is true for adults too - although you might have expected them to have learnt empathy

'how is it just 'basic manners' if it's not expected to be reciprocated by adults giving up seats for children? '

Agree 100%, but unless people parked themselves in their seats, first-come-first-served style, and refused to move, we'd all just be playing a never-ending game of musical chairs: you sit, no you sit ad nauseam...

(This has all gone a bit surreal in my brain, like a word that suddenly looks inexplicably weird; casualty of over-thinking it I think.)

Maybe I overdosed on Enid Blyton books as a child or something but I cant seem to change my mind - still doesnt seem right to me that school aged children sit when adults stand . But not prepared to fall out with anyone over it!

Noooo, no to falling out over it, just unexpectedly bovvered about it!!