to expect people to get their children to vacate seats.

[noonar]

ok, am really not sure what the consensus will be here, so here goes...

dd goes to swimming lessons. there are about 35 children doing classes of different levels. the spectators' are is very hot and cramped. there is v little room for an adult to sit on the floor, and only about 25 seats.

last week, for some reason, there was a large number of siblings watching the lessons with their parents. many of these were occupying a seat. one mum had 2 sons with her. they took up 3 seat. also, a dad let his 2yo have a seat to herself.

meanwhile, i was struggling to keep tabs on my 3yo, while standing, as she edged close to the safety rail between us and poolside.

now, i know children are people too and should be treated with respect but do you think it was fair to allow children to occupy so many seats , in the circs?

sorry dd won't give up her seat........well it is her wheelchair. for once a plus side .
but i would expect ds(very nearly 16 to give his up)

Obviously, that would be up to yuou. How you share out your seats is up to you

I see it as simple fairness. If we were at a school function, Dh and I would not both sit, if both members of another couple were standing. In the past dh would stand. now he needs to sit, so I would stand, and offer to 'share' the seating. If the other couple chose to decline, then fine. But at least we have been polite.

and I would expect no less of my children.

Well the need wasn't there for the seat, ie not pregnant, elderly, on crutches or unable to stand for any reason. Because someone is having hard time controlling there child surely thats the parents responsibility to deal with, i personally wouldn't have taken my 3yr old into that situation because lets face it, it is rather boring for a child of that age and thats why they act up. If i had to take her i probably would have taken pushchair then it would have made it bit easier to deal with. My 9yr old and 6yr old will quite happily offer seats without prompting and will open doors for people, very well mannered!! i just can't see why they should have to offer the seat, great if they do but shouldn't be a case of they should have to!! If a child is sitting quietly and not causing a nuisance to others why!!!

and if I sit in a seat vacted by i child (or anyone else for that matter) I make sure I say a nice, heartfelt thank you!

We could all just go grap chair, 'I got here first', but I'd rather live in a society where people thought at least a little| about the welfair of others.

It is realy only an extension of 'Share your toys' and 'Be nice to each other'

By EffiePerine on Thu 24-Jan-08 13:28:27
just coming back to say I was always horribly car-sick and I still got the back seat.

Effie - I was always jammed behind the drivers seat with my 3 siblings next to me so it was a fairly tight squeeze (wouldn't be allowed nowadays). I had to sit that side since my brother was banned from sitting behind my Dad since he had a tendency to shout in his ear unexpectedly and wriggle. Sometimes my Nan and Mum used to join us in the back as well, esp on holidays. One sibling was sent into the front then to share the adult belt with my Grandad. Have to add this was in the 70s.

and nothing really to do with the OP at all

re the whole "respect" thing. I agree that there are plenty of adults who don;t "deserve" respect and that age is not, per se, something that merits respect. However I remember well a conversation I had with a friend on this (not particularly with regard to kids, just respect in general) which changed my opinion of my friend, confirmed my own position and has lived with me for years. My friend argued that people needed to "earn" respect ie his default position is not to bother with respect until he is convinced the individual deserves it. I vehemently disagree and think this is a very negative thing - and an especially negative thing to impart to our children. My default is that everyone deserves respect - everyone I come into contact with (including my children) deserves basic respect. They may subsequently loose my respect - through their behaviour, or perhaps just as I learn more about them, but I just can't see how else we can all rub along together unless we have respect as the default. I don;t teach my children to respect their elders. I teach them to respect everyone (but, in fact most people are older than them - that's just maths!)

And I really agree with those who have said that children take pleasure and pride in their kindnesses. Arbitrary rules about always doing something for no other reason than becuase you're a certain age don't engender this. But teaching about empathy and kindness most certainly do. And it's lovely to see. How can that not be a good thing for our society

(I also don't see where any of what I've said is incompatible with leading by example.)

Actually I think I confused the argument a bit by being dogmatic and using phrases like 'elders' not to mention 'end of.'

If I'd thought it through more I would hope that basically I might have managed to say what hatwoman just said, which I didn't say but wished I had. She's right.

What happens when two people who believe you have to earn respect before you get it get together?

Hatwoman - Very eloquent. I totally agree with you.

hatwoman, I think exactly the same as you - I try to approach/treat everyone with respect, as a default position. Some people then go on to show that they aren't particularly worthy of it (but not many IME).

I don't see that as necessitating the whole seats thing. An able-bodied adult expecting a child to give up his or her seat is not approaching that child with respect, surely?

I think what you and 100x are really saying is that children are worthy of respect, just not as much as adults. And that an adult's comfort is intrinsically more important than that of a child. I don't get that at all.

Perhaps what we're saying is that we think, sorry hatwoman, I think that my children should be shown how to behave in a respectful and courteous way.

This is an example of it, of one of the ways I hope to engender that courteousness and thoughfulness in them - but by no means the ONLY - I also ask them write thank you letters, to be kind to someone, to stand up to the bully on the school bus (grrrr, he's annoying me) who is being mean to ds2's friend.

And as for me asking for a seat. Well, erm, it isn't that I don't respect the child, it's just that I want to sit down and am not afraid to ask. Though I suppose if I'm honest, I've only ever done this if I'm holding a baby or am pregnant actually.

And yes, I think in the case of the OP, YES, it is more important that she and her 3 y-o squash on the chair so the 3 y-o stops being daft poolside, and that an 8 y-o experiences some discomfort on the floor.

Yes, I do think that.

Though I think it more to do with being practical than being respectful perhaps?

I do all those things (and tell my children to do them) too! I'm not some sort of insane anti-manners person. I am courteous to the point of prostration most of the time. I'm the sort of person who says 'sorry' when someone steps on my foot.

Sorry to hear about your bus bully. I dread DS1 getting bullied. He will just cry and run to the teacher immediately and I fear this will not earn him Respect at all.

I don't think I'd expect a child to move for me, and I certainly wouldn't ask/tell them to. All I'm saying is that I hope my own children would, as I would myself for someone who I thought needed the seat more than I did. It's about basic courtesy and thoughtfulness. Re: on moving bus; well, at the moment my two are small enough to perch on my knee with an arm to protect them from too much damage. Once they get too big for that, I reckon they can balance themselves as well as anyone else - probably better.

NO you don't sound like an anti-manners person at all. I thought what you were saying was really interesting actually.

Oh the bully isn't picking on mine, and he isn't really a bully, he's just an arse and is teasing this boy, and the boy is all sad. Anywaaay, I have told ds1 and his Y5 friends to keep an eye on it, and to tell him to stop picking on ds2's friend.

I have no idea if it's the right advice. I will feel awful if they hit him or something. Surely they won't?

I just find the ' I gor here first' thing tiresome.

I see a similar thing mirrored in ever larger numbers of the teenagers that I work with.

I do a dining room duty, we teachers go round with bins, collecting waste, but the kids still commonly throw unwanted food on the floor, or leave it on the table.

We are modeling good social behaviour, but if you ask them to pass you a paper plate you are most often told' But it isn't mine, why should I pass it to you'

Or you are told, 'it isn't my job to put things in the bin, that is what the cleaners are for'

And I find this lack of responsibility to the school community awful. 'I'm all right, fuck you, not my job'

I don't think you sound lke an anti mannerd lout either

I'd never let my DCs sit on a seat and see adults stand. I'd get my DCs to sit on the floor (too big for my knee).But not everyone shares that opinion. I regularly go to events where children take seats, adults are standing, and then the children go off and play leaving their bags on their seats and the parents refusing to let adults sit down. I find that really annoying.

I don't think it is about not 'respecting' the child or about respecting them less but I suppose I expect the child to respect the adult more......I am now hating the word respect grrr.

Yes, 'respect' is a whole other can of worms isn't it.

(BTW 100x you would have been proud of me today. Mrs Previous Occupant's mini-Boden catalogue arrived and I put it in the recycling.)

Yes, it makes me cringe.
This thread is why I love MN. I find it so interesting. Threads like this make me a much more tolerant person. And less judgemental too because you and I, Policywonk, obviously disagree on this one but from your comments and having 'seen' you on other threads I know we would prob get on in RL iyswim......

I thought you were going to run a mile in the opposite direction then, screaming!

Nooo, I need all the friends I can get.

It's true that MN makes you less judgemental I think - or at least, it makes you more prepared for the fact that people who agree with you on one thing might strongly disagree about something else, and that this needn't mean that you stop liking them. Why it took an internet forum to teach me this, I don't know .