To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

Charles III not only can trace his Welsh ancestry back over 550yrs to Owain Tudor and 1,000 yrs to Gruffyd ap Llywelyn, the last Prince of Wales but he also studied Welsh language and history at University College of Wales in Aberystwyth. In addition, since 2007 he has lived there part of every year in Mydffai in a home he bought in Wales.

The Prince of Wales title was stolen from the Welsh princes by Edward I in 1283 when the Angevin Normans conquered Wales.

But a mere two hundred years later, Henry VII, grandson of the Welsh nobleman Owain Tudor, took the throne in 1485, and since then the title has been held by a royal of noble Welsh descent. Owain Tudor was descended from Rhys ap Tewdwr (Rhys ap Tudor Mawr), king of the Deheubarth in South Wales. In addition, Charles III is also descended from Princess Nest verch Gruffyd the daughter of Gruffyd ap Llywelyn, the last Prince of Wales via James I/IV (Stuarts of Scotland who are descended from her).

Female ancestors matter as much as male.

The royal family today has English, Welsh and Scottish ancestry plus various European ancestry from the usual dynastic matches that royals in Europe commonly made with each other. Even if we’re one to saying that Charles III is only “half British” because his father Phillip was nominally Greek and Danish isn’t the whole story because Prince Phillip was descended from our Queen Victoria! Making both Charles III’s mother AND father descended from Welsh royalty.

Martin Sheen delivers the Raymond Williams Memorial Lecture 2017
Many of the stirring clips circulating on Twitter originate here.

Cau dy dwll, pwy ofynodd am dy farn di?

Im welsh and dont support the OP’s hatred.

infact , hatred like that being spewed on my Facebook has prompted me to have a clear out of my friends.

at the end of the day, a person has died and that hate being churned out is infuriating.

The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales.

So, based on my post above, this isn’t true, it was true for 202yrs from 1282 to 1485, but since then the title Prince of Wales has been continuously held by men descended from two original Welsh royal families- the Kingdom of Gwynedd and the Kingdom of Deheubarth.

Scotland didn’t - made not one whit of difference , we’re still stuck with it

They’re not German! Look at the family trees. George I (Hanover)was the great grandson of James I/IV. Albert Saxe-Coburgs father was the brother of Victoria I’s mother (they were first cousins). Two marriages within your family of your cousin who is descended from a British expat who married a German over 300yrs doesn’t ethnically make you ten generations later more German than British! FGS we have British people fully considered to be ethnically British because their great grandmother married a German refugee fleeing the Nazis only last century.

I am loving all the Welsh history on this thread. We’ll done everyone. We’ll defeat the hatred with what we have in common rather than what sets us apart.

@justanotherposter

No need for me to pay anyone back, my Grandfather and Great Grandfather were down the fucking mines digging it up. They were Welsh.

Prince Phillip was descended from Victoria I. So he was even part British…and also descended from Welsh royalty.

Also, another fun fact, the English didn’t invade Wales. The Normans did. The Normans invaded and took over England and then surprise! Just kept going on into Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. Yeah sure, they had a few English in their armies but it’s not like the Normans gave the English peasants a choice really. It was we kill your wife, children, burn your hut and take your livestock or you join our army.

They had a choice to use the Prince and Princess of Wales titles because it isn’t an automatic title. They could have canvassed an opinion from the Welsh people in line with democracy, for example. So many other options available.

And if they had they would have found strong support for making William and Catherine the Prince and Princess of Wales. By a ratio of 60:25 looking at Welsh polling.

OMG he's an actor not a historian. Richard Burton was ten times a more talented orator.

Henry V speech Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood. Again great speech.

If I remember correctly I think only one Anglo-Saxon noble kept his lands and he still had to marry a Norman wife. So if the nobles were treated like that then the peasants..😬

But yeah I made the same point earlier. The Normans invaded Wales.

And we went on strike time and again so the mines were closed. The wages were already way above what most Welsh people made. Trouble was there weren't alternative jobs to go to.

@Discovereads How about you read "A Great and Terrible King: Edward I" and then you can make factually informed comments. I know might be a bit of a stretch for you, but perhaps worth it? Consider it :)

A lot of Edwards armies, even for his Welsh wars, were in fact Welsh. He's probably most well known though as "Hammer of the Scots", but even that seems like an epithet bestowed in later times.

Given Welsh history, I have nothing but the utmost admiration for how they maintained so much of their culture and language being so close to a powerful aggressive dominant neighbour. Well done Wales! UK is so much the richer for it.

That's just an article written by a Welsh Nationalist who also admits the following:

"William becoming Prince of Wales will no doubt be very popular with a large part of the Welsh population. There’s no point denying that."

Then says part of the population will feel very, very strongly. But not a majority.

Rather than helping you, it undermines you on that point alone.

and through my own research into my family tree, William is also a descendent through Diana of Welsh nobility (my Nain is from Llwydiaid Cwm Bychan) so he has welsh history both sides!

@justasking111

Which is why my GF left Wales in the end (before the mines closed for good mind) and it's why I'm 1/4 English if we want to look at genetics. I don't claim to have any say over what Wales does or what the Scots do, but I guess I do think we are better off as the UK and should look at what we actually have in common. Most English people's ancestors were basically peasants too. And in my case most of them weren't English at all. Having said all of that GF bloody loved Wales, and is buried there as per his dying wish. I feel very British.

The new Princess of Wales is also descended from Llywelyn the Great and is also distantly related to her husband, William, Prince of Wales.

Naturally, their kids are too.

Some are intent on ignoring the House Of Windsor's very British ancestry and the fact Queen Elizabeth II was the most British of all sovereigns when she ascended.

Nationalism will always attempt to distort history and ancestral lines as it requires division of the people to dismantle the UK unitary state.

Scratch a nationalist, find a racist.

Awesome

We had a councillor who stated in a meeting this June past that people were talking about burning cottages again. He's a plonker par excellence for these type of statements. Same guy said how thrilled they were to welcome Ukrainian people to Wales. The hypocrisy is unbelievable

It is an indubitable fact that the Royal Family is predominantly of English & German descent.

They of course have British nationality - of course they aren't "half British".

Regarding all the history, the Tudors as you remember had no direct heirs.

Looking it up, there appears to be a very distant link through Margaret Tudor, marrying into the Stewart lineage but the other link through "Nest" appears to be possibly mythical rather than historical and lost in the mists of time. It is all so tenuous that you can't blame the popular Welsh feeling for many people of being unconvinced that the Royals are enitiled to the Welsh Prince title. It is a bit of a fudge. Certainly my Nain was of this mind.

The Royals' links to Scotland are a good deal more convincing.

In the circumstances, if the Royals were that convinced that people in Wales want another royal Prince of Wales they could have got affirmation through a consultation couldn't they? Rather than pushing this through at a time of bereavement.

I think there is no harm in discussing the matter given the element of planning that presumably went into the timing.

They chose to do it like this.

I feel no hatred at all, we should do away with this fake title and get on with living peaceably and respectfully together like the actual and spiritual descendents of princes that we all are in Wales.

This is not the time for this. If people were so concerned it could have been done before now since the King rarely used the title anyway.