To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

Unionism is normal as well.

USA
Australia
UK
European Union

All examples of unions.

Odd circular reasoning from you.

Try it on your own then.

See how you go.

You can’t put everything right that was wrong centuries ago. Never get anything else done. You’re being ridiculous.

The Stuarts were Scottish,

Well, no, not really.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stuart

That is not correct, the Tudors took over in 1485, after Henry Tudor won the Battle of Bosworth.

Not a second goes by when someone isn’t offended by something anymore. It’s bloody exhausting!

How is independence normal if you haven't been independent since the 1280's? At least Scotland has had a more recent taste of it.

Interesting all the people saying they loathe nationalism - when it suits them. I bet they're all proud of being English. You dislike nationalism in others because it disrupts your cosy little set up. As an Irish person I fully support the fight for independence in Scotland and Wales. The celtic culture is strong and no one gets to label it as 'British'.

And the Scottish monarchs were descendents of the Anglo Saxon Kings through Queen Margaret in the 11th century.

Yes! It reminds me of this meme.

Nah. Just discussing history and facts.

As I said, I'm very happy for people of other ethnicities to adopt the idea of being Welsh if they would like.

I would respect the wishes of the Welsh people as regards having another Prince of Wales, that's a separate issue.

And I would continue to describe the Royal Family as having Anglo German ancestors as that is, you know, fact (see also the post of MRex) - that was the reason we got into discussing surnames.

@DownNative Your very long winded replied indeed shows you REALLY don't get it. Thanks for the clarification :)

It is a myth that only those nations are Celtic. A lot of English people are descended and have the ancestry.

@DownNative so everything you claim is evidenced and everything I say is just my opinion. Gotcha!

Well it's been lovely having this bizarre non conversation. Have a nice day now 😀

Of course Anglophobia is a driver for Scottish separatism. It might not be the main driver but only a fool would deny it exists.

Amongst the more deranged separatist supporters Anglophobia extends to people who aren't English-supporting the Union means you aren't a true Scot and you're "doing Scotland down".

An interesting post, but two factual errors. The Tudors came to power in 1485, after the Battle of Bosworth (or according to Henry VII, just before, so that everyone who fought against him could be called a traitor), so 200 years after Llewelyn, not 'just a few'
And George VI married a Scottish woman, not an English one.

And it was British prior the Anglo Saxons and Jutes.

Oh, I understood your own Nationalist argument so well I dismantled it and evidenced mine.

You continue to fail to evidence yours which demonstrates it was an ill thought out remark.

Good luck with that(!)

'Interesting all the people saying they loathe nationalism - when it suits them. I bet they're all proud of being English.'

Bollocks. Many of us just aren't small minded enough to be obsessed with where we were born/ raised/ or the mix of nationalities we've all inherited somewhere along the line. Honestly, is it really that weird to just think of oneself as a global citizen? (And Yeap I know that sounds a bit wanky, and I'd never go around announcing 'I'm a citizen of the world!' - but that's the point really; it's just not something many of us are obsessed with.

No, the difference is I provided evidence of my assertions.

YOU provided nothing except for rhetoric and an anecdote about people you know which is known as the Anecdotal Fallacy.

Fallacy = Error in logic.

Good luck(!)

Cymraeg ydwi. Sir Fôn.

This is simply not the time. Even the organisation ‘Republic’ have issued a statement saying that this is not the time to debate the future of the monarchy.

There is a complicated history of oppression in Welsh history. However, debating it this week isn’t going to get us anywhere other than riots and hostility. The investiture of the Prince of Wales is likely to be a flash point for terrorism. We don’t need to inflame that.

These threads and anti-monarchy sentiment are just in poor taste this week.

We can respect the individuals involved and their bereavement, we can respect the Queen and her service, without liking the institution they represent.

I live in Scotland. My mother was Scottish and my father was French. I absolutely loathe Scottish nationalism. I loathe the "Celtic" myth making.

I'm British- my nationality is British. There's a lot that is good about the UK, it has its faults, everywhere does, but I'm pleased to be a citizen of the UK.

But being proud of where you're born and your heritage and culture doesn't mean your not a global citizen. I enjoy nothing more than travelling meeting mew people to learn about different countries and cultures. But I still want my country and language to thrive and be recognised in its own right - its not being obsessed it's a feeling of belonging.

@herecomesthsun facts?

Queen Elizabeth II is a relative of the Irish High King, Brian Boru!

So, the ancestry of the Royal Family is not strictly Anglo-German at all. 🤔

YANBU if you are asking for an intelligent, well-informed objective debate on historic traditions that, through a modern lens, are best left consigned to history rather than perpetuated.

YABVVU to take such personal offence and be 'enraged'. Virtually everyone could have a beef about some historical injustice related to their part of the world. Set out a coherent and reasonable argument, like Michael Sheen.

I'm Welsh, not British and I hope to see Welsh independence in my lifetime.