To tell you why the title ‘Prince of Wales’ is an historical insult to the Welsh and shouldn’t exist anymore

[Upthebracket22]

I am Welsh. I was enraged yesterday when the new king decided to ‘bestow’ the title on Prince William, an English Prince without asking the Welsh if they wanted another English Prince of Wales.

here is some historical context from a petition going around at the moment:

The "Prince of Wales" title (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title historically used by native, Welsh princes since the 14th century. The last native Prince of Wales was Llywelyn the Last, killed by English soldiers in 1282 and his head was then paraded through the streets of London and placed on a Tower of London spike. Llywelyn's brother Dafydd was the first person of note to be hung, drawn and quartered and his head was placed next to Llywelyn's. Both their daughters were taken as infants and children and imprisoned.

But this happened centuries ago you might say. The truth is, that since the days of Llywelyn the Last and the "rebel" Prince of Wales, Owain Glyndwr, the title has been held exclusively by Englishmen as a symbol of dominance over Wales. To this day, the English "Princes of Wales" have no genuine connection to our country.

The title remains an insult to Wales and is a symbol of historical oppression. The title also implies that Wales is still a principality, undermining Wales' status as a nation and a country. In addition, the title has absolutely no constitutional role for Wales, which is now a devolved country with a national Parliament.

As Welsh actor, Michael Sheen put it;

"Make a break there. Put some things that have been the wrongs of the past right. There's an opportunity to do that at that point. Don't necessarily just because of habit and without thinking just carry on that tradition that was started as a humiliation to our country. Why not change that as we come to this moment where things will inevitably change."

I don’t think many people have any concept of Welsh history. I find it offensive and think now would have been a good moment to right a historical wrong.

..and the English have never been insulted, whilst in Scotland, have they? @TartanGirl1 🙄

Hahaha nutter! Voting right wing is worst thing that a peasant can do for themselves

I don’t think independence would be a good thing and I don’t really like the Welshification of Wales in areas where the language has been English for many many many years. I don’t want to feel excluded in my own country because with the best will in the world, I’m never going to crack the language verbally. My mother is actually so old she remembers the teachers caning people for speaking Welsh in schools but two wrongs don’t make a right!

I've got a shocking number of 10 year old coal miners among my fairly recent ancestors and that was post Shaftesbury of course. They were all English.

Whatever, of course, English is. The successive waves of invasion you describe have left us mongrels and I am proud of that. We all have Celtic antecedents, mixed in with the Romans (who actually came from all over, including Africa), the Angles, the Saxons (who were genetically pretty much the same as Danish Vikings), the other Vikings and the Norman French (who were basically Vikings)

This is without the later incidences and waves of refugees and immigrants who have enriched and continue to enrich our society and culture beyond description.

@DingleyDel and @barms90

Not to derail but Oxford Professor Danny Dorling researched Brexit voting numbers geographically and found that whilst that yes Cornwall definitely voted for Brexit, actually that it was older retired English who moved to Wales who tipped the vote for Brexit in Wales, not the Welsh. He said “The Welsh did not want to quit the EU, but that is one of many false beliefs about Brexit".

He also says the numbers in the North voting for Brexit were too few to swing the vote (although Norfolk 57%,same as Cornwall’s, was pretty high) and puts responsibility firmly on voters in the southern counties with the highest numbers in areas populated with affluent older people, such as Hampshire, Cornwall and Devon.

Also interestingly, as we are speaking about nationalism, he suggests it was English nationalism as the motive to leave.

@TartanGirl1 I said AT LEAST one of the motivations for Scottish independence .

I've shown that Anglophobia is at least one of the factors.

You made a Strawman Argument asserting "is not the driving factor, no" which is NOT what I argued!

Whereas your username is about aimlessness and rambling. More than apt, I would say.

Yes, stravaig is about wandering, exploring, being curious, open to the world. So too Scotland and Wales as progressive independent nations within the global community.

Whereas English exceptionalism and English imperialism are very much a cul-de-sac. A dead end. Going nowhere.

I speak not a jot of Welsh google translate is your friend.

Dw i'n siarad dim jot o gymraeg google translate ydy dy ffrind.

We can discuss this further if you really want to, although I did post some more information below.

My understanding is that Prince Philip's surname was originally Saxe Coburg Gotha" - he had a fine royal European lineage. However, Saxe Coburg Gotha sounded too German, so he appears to have taken on his mother's surname which was Battenburg" (like the cake).

However, in the post War climate, and also with sisters who had married into the German royalty, or what was left of it, this sounded still too German, so he changed his name to Mountbatten, like his uncle, which is what I was referring to.

However, a comment was made, by his uncle, that there was now a "House of Mountbatten; it was felt that this still left the royal family open to concerns about being not-English-enough, so the name was changed again to Windsor, as this sounded English. Philip was very angry that his descendents did not have his name and a concession was made that minor royals could have the title "Mountbatten-Windsor".

Charles' lineage is pretty Anglo-German. In fact.

I have no problem with an Anglo German family calling themselves British, why not? But it is accurate to describe the ancestry as Anglo-German.

And, given the bloody history of Wales' dispossession of its own princes and princesses, it is reasonable for Welsh people to say this is not our prince, have your royal family of Anglo German descent as you wish, that is interesting in its own historical way. But they aren't Welsh are they?

🤣🤣🤣

Outstanding post. The Welsh had slaves Roman, Viking, captured during skirmishes in a bygone age. Should statues be toppled, financial reparations made. We invaded England many a time. We did get on well with the Scots who could converse in Welsh with us. blog.library.wales/wales-and-the-slave-trade/. Our history in Wales of buying slaves is a dirty one

As you say we've all got blood on our hands.

So how many generations of a family have to be born in Wales to be Welsh @herecomesthsun ? Does it count if they are not white?

@herecomesthsun 'The Battenberg name was last used by Prince Francis Joseph of Battenberg, youngest son of the Princess of Battenberg, who died childless in 1924. In 1917, most members of the family had been residing in the British Empire and had renounced their Hessian titles, due to rising anti-German sentiment among the British during the First World War. At that point, they changed the family name to Mountbatten, an anglicised version of Battenberg'

@RealMcKoy

They oppressed their own, too.

I am curious where you would put the traveller community in all this. A community that has the highest mortality rate in the U.K.

The Irish that went to the US and succeeded on the level you talked about were largely from the Protestant community (to the best of my knowledge). People like Ford for example.

The rural, largely Catholic emigres were as much exploited by their bosses as every other group and we’re leaving extreme poverty behind. I don’t think any of the poorer communities were financially independent enough to do anything other than survive.

There is also a big difference historically between the Irish that went to the US and those who went to the U.K. Different politics, relationships with host country, expectations, etc. I’m not sure they are as so easily comparable as that.

Voting left right wherever you live is pointless, they're all pretty ineffective these days and march to a global drum

Threads like this make me very sad that I don't know much about the history of the UK. Can anyone recommend a relatively non-biased book please? I find it fascinating. All animals fight over territory. It was ever thus. History is full of atrocities, as is the modern age. I think sadly it is human nature. That doesn't make it right but I often wonder if humans will ever learn to co-exist peacefully.

I lived in North Wales for several years and attended university there. My parents lived on Anglesey. It wasn't very welcoming at all as I was perceived as English although some people were lovely. It is sad that the sins of the fathers are still punished in the current generation. My family history is Irish on my maternal grandad's side with Lincolnshire, Yorkshire and Lancashire in there too but I am deemed English so therefore seen as someone to not like at times because of history. We cannot change history but we can change how we act going forward.

I don’t want a Prince of Wales (or for the Severn Bridge to be renamed either). I don’t want a Royal Family. I have respect for the individual people, including the Queen who did a difficult job well, but no respect at all for the institution of monarchy, which is inequitable, anachronistic, and at the heart of our class ridden culture of appropriation and privatisation of the commons. I am Welsh and have strong feelings for my country, but I can also see how many other regions of the U.K. and indeed many English people might want change, at this moment when there is the opportunity for debate.

The point is that William is not Welsh; he doesn't appear to regard himself as predominantly Welsh; there was little consultation as to whether the Welsh want him as their Prince; and the history of the "Prince of Wales" title involves bloodshed, oppression and trickery.

So I would suggest we are better to be shot of that title and that unfortunate history.

He has got lots of other titles hasn't he? He'll be ok without one more,

If someone is black and regards themselves as having ties of birth or circumstance to Wales then I'd be delighted to regard them as Welsh.

But why perpetuate this idea of fiefdom to the Royals?

Wonderfully put.

@RealMcKoy Yeah I have noticed a rewriting of history of the British Empire as if non of the devolved nations took any part of it or profited.

@DownNative it absolutely isn't. Every single person that supports independence doesn't not have the same motivations. We are not all the same with the same reasons.

Anglophobia is not a motivation for me or anyone I know. And certainly not the non Scottish supporters. But I would be ridiculous to say that might not be a factor for wee Jimmy in Cowdenbeath.

As a whole it is not anti English and I wish the media would stop spreading such a hateful rhetoric.

Let's all be more happy and positive. We can have different views without hatred.

@Upthebracket22 but not for any reason other than the fact Wales was already unified with England.

You could always campaign for the Dragon to bd included?

You'd have more chance of that than Welsh independence! And this Ulster Catholic Unionist would be proud to fly it too!

@TartanGirl1 as I said it's at least one of the motivations for independence. It clearly doesn't mean EVERY Scottish Nationalist feels that way.

But a good proportion do as I've evidenced.

You, on the other hand, provided no evidence and rely on a vague blame the media rather than those Scottish Nationalists who clearly are Anglophobic.

Last year the Welsh flag was voted the best in the world

www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/coolest-flag-world-0011575

There is a long complicated history, but the bottom line is that Wales as conquered and assimilated by England. Like Scotland, it is essentially ruled from and by English people. As a result, we can name a person "Prince of Wales" if we want. Most English people don't know or care enough that it might upset a small number of Welsh people.