To think skin colour matters WAY more than people like to admit

[daysayso]

I am involved in marketing campaigns - I won't say what because it's outing but let's say I recently worked on a campaign where the service being provided had absolutely nothing to do with race (so it wasn't makeup or hair for example).

Yet the vast majority that responded were people of colour (Same as the person featured in the ad) and it made me think how much your life chances are still dictated by your skin colour.

People like to consider race more than they like to admit even in spaces where it has nothing to do with anything, people just seem to feel more 'comfortable' with their own.

I felt for the first time in a long time my success will in part depend on my skin colour because for whatever reason the majority of white people that saw this ad decided it wasn't for them on the basis I'm someone of colour.

Please no arguments I'm looking for a mature conversation and if you find the topic sensitive you need not respond

Just looking for others experiences really

I agree it is a ridiculous comparison!

If you see that there has been an armed robbery. You will often see the police looking for a white male, 5ft 7 with a butterfly tattoo on his cheek. Or black male, 5ft 7 with a seahorse on his cheek. Maybe we just remove the need for colour altogether? It was a male, 5ft 7 with a butterfly/sea horse on his cheek. To me that is far more acceptable.

@Festoonlights Personally I think that is a terrible idea and a totally unacceptable idea. If you're describing someone why on earth would you not describe their whole physical appearance including skin/hair colour. You're going to notice that long before you see a tattoo.

Because you would stop, we would all stop, identifying people by skin colour.

If you have any sway or can input maybe see if there could be some research into this by your dept/ employer.
I think black, Asian are acceptable. Then I think it’s differentiation between south and east Asian etc. Just my thoughts. Happy to be corrected

I don’t think it would be helpful if you are describing someone.

Describe the most obvious things about them and include race/ethnicity

Why can't we identify people by their visual descriptors.

If you're trying to describe me out of an average group of white women you'd be bloody silly not to mention that Im the one in the power wheelchair, and personally I'd rather you used that than 'morbidly obese' though that is also true (and if everyone else were in a power wheelchair and we were all otherwise identical, then fair enough!)

Visual descriptions are not judgements or discrimination, they are fact.

I've had people tell me 'Oh I don't see the wheelchair'... and wait to be congratulated for that somehow. Then they are shocked when I say 'well I wish you would, because it suggests something deeply wrong with your vision if you can't, but also because it means my needs are potentially different to someone elses. If you 'don't see' my wheelchair when, for example, inviting me to an event, how do I know you've considered accessibility for me?'

I do think there is a risk that if people feel 'damned if they do, damned if they don't'... there will be a bigger divide and more 'othering' in future.

If I don't know the specifics of someones origin (or anything else that happens to be relevant) and I ask... some people will find that rude and assume racist motivation.

But if I assume and guess and I am wrong... some will find THAT rude.....

The natural outcome of repeated events like that are that one group avoids the heck out of the other! Surely that is then the opposite of what is desired!

I don't know what the solution is, I suspect part of the problem is there are many individuals who all appear (And some genuinely are, and some aren't but it's taken that way) to be speaking on behalf of an entire group - but on some issues they're all saying slightly different things.

A good example is 'person first' language surrounding disability - I would rather be a 'person with a disability' than 'a disabled person', however my OH would rather be 'an autistic person' than 'a person with autism'.

We both know disabled and autistic people who prefer the opposite, and we both know people who profess to speak for all when they clearly do not, but non-disabled and non-autistic (and yes I am aware some autistic people identify as disabled and some do not) would potentially not know that.

Really? Where do you live? I'd love to move there. I hope it also has nicer weather than the UK. :-)

Person of colour(POC) is fine rather than just Black.

White privilege comes from never having to worry whether you are going to be stopped in your car, stopped from going into a restaurant or shouted at on the street because of your colour.

It's mixed ethnicity...we are all the human race so you can't be mixed race.

Everyone sees colour, you notice if the black girl has amazing hair or if the classroom only has white children(actually poc notice that not white people)

Growing up every advert and TV show had 99% white people. Now it's different and white people don't like it...welcome to my world.

I can honestly say every issue I've ever had in public has been a white old man of a certain age...asking where I'm from, telling me I have a nice shape, commenting on my heritage etc.

Black people don't comment on mumsnet because of the overwhelming white privilege on 98% of these posts.

I am quite intrested to hear the reasoning behind this comment, curious in your experience how you generalise attitudes of mixed race people based on which parent is black ? I dont feel this is a valid statement in my own experience attitudes can vary regardless.

@Designhelp interesting theory.

Isn't some of this normal though?

When you see a picture of a classroom would you notice if there were no wheelchair users? I would, I am a wheelchair user, but I actually wouldn't expect everyone to notice, and I wouldn't think that was a major failing on their part if they did not notice.

I don't think we can be 100% aware of every single thing that affects every single person. Whats needed is the ability to listen when someone says something is a problem.

Why is it ok to suggest the entirety of a group feel one way about something? The few adverts I have seen that include black, mixed ethnicity, non-white people.. are absolutely fine, no more irritating to me than any other advert (And that is my overriding feeling about advertising, it is usually irritating!) - i can't speak for all white people, I am not all white people, nor do I know them all. I am sure there are some knuckle dragging arseholes who have an issue with it, but we're not allowed to throw them all in the sea!

By your reckoning, I am not experiencing white privilege!

My sister drives me a lot - we regularly get stopped because she looks like a 14 year old boy (And some may say drives like one at times), driving round in a fairly fast car often late at night.

I have to worry about abuse in the street every time I go out and this has been affecting how much I go out by myself following an unpleasant incident where a man came over to SPIT at me and tell me I am disgusting. When I was going out frequently I would experience something like that five days out of seven.

I have to worry about every single venue I try to access, because theres a good chance I can't go in, that I'll be told I can't bring my assistance dog, that I'll be told my wheelchair is too big, that I'll get eye rolls, sighs, all the way up to being screamed at to fuck off 'we don't want your type in here'...

I get it - it doesn't matter that my white privilege isn't much of a privilege, because MOST white people have it, and when the majority have it, thats an issue... but it is pretty galling to be told repeatedly that you have this magical privilege that in fact, you don't!

If you are white you do have white privilege. I am not white so I don't have white privilege.

Similarly, I don't have a disability so I do have the privilege that comes from that and it includes all the things you mentioned that (for now) I don't have to worry about. I also have a host of other privileges by virtue of my financial status, where I live, etc.

It's not my fault that I am not disabled and therefore my life is easier in all the ways that affects people who do have a disability but just because it's not my fault do you see me denying the privilege I have or offsetting it against not being white? It's not a race to the bottom. You can he multi faceted and most of us have a few privileges compared to others.

Being aware of your privilege just means being aware of how the world operates, in which way you are advantaged and in which ways others aren't. Why does that make people so defensive?

Tbh, I feel like all this shit about the British Empire is mainly something for woke white people to moan about.

The number of slaves in the world today is almost 4x the amount that were enslaved over the entire 400 years of the transatlantic slave trade - 40 million vs 12 million.

If you look at the top 10 countries with the highest prevalence of modern slavery there is only one majority white country on the list (Russia) which isn't even a western country.

Top 10 Countries with the Highest Prevalence of Modern Slavery (by total number of slaves) - Global Slavery Index 2018:

India - 7,989,000
China - 3,864,000
North Korea - 2,640,000
Nigeria - 1,386,000
Iran - 1,289,000
Indonesia - 1,220,000
Congo (Democratic Republic of) - 1,045,000
Russia - 794,000
Philippines - 784,000
Afghanistan - 749,000

I think if any group is given a label that is frankly horrific, based on the history and actions of long dead people, and the modern behaviour of 'some' people... you'll get defensive thinking and behaviour.

I think a lot of people feel this way - they're told 'all white people are racist' and to me, thats like being told 'you hate me and want me dead/gone/not to exist, you want to hurt me and my family like your ancestors did, and you're a cunt'.

Can you see why being told that might make people defensive?

I get that thats NOT what everyone is saying by a long long way, and that the casual, unthinking, 'I am unaware of my white privilege' stuff is absolutely important...

I'm just looking through a 'check your white privilege' thing as a disabled person - not because I think the answers of an online quiz determine whether I am an arsehole or not! monitoracism.eu/check-yourself-the-white-privilege-test/

So swapping in disability instead of skin colour - mm it doesn't really work like that but it does seem that much of my white privilege is wiped out by the combination of disability, or being female, or being fat. I came up with just four yeses to that particular 'test' btw.

Does that change anything? Does being white without much white privilege mean much - I don't know, I suspect that is not for me to say really!

I also have to say that this discussion is interesting and I rarely get involved because its almost always impossible to explore how I think and feel about anything without being permanently worried that I've been offensive and vile, and then I worry that apologising for that looks pathetic.. and you know it becomes SO much easier to just avoid the whole thing and NOT think about it and THERES my white privilege... I can 'not think about it'... but for me, only because I have got enough to think about with my own shiz!

Surely one could say that being able to access enough food to be fat is also a privilege?

That’s it there, you can choose to not think of it.

Also I have able bodied pri

Oops

able bodied privilege.

This?

I thought person of colour was an acceptable term to use instead of non-white? If she meant black she'd say black?

It is acceptable but v American and better than BAME

You could mm (though thats not why I am fat, I'd be fat on very little due to steroids and insulin and lymphedema which whilst not fat, looks like it to 99% of people if you're not naked!)

... I do have enough food though currently, thats a privilege I am sure, but not specific to being white is it? ~

Is it fair for me to expect someone with able bodied privilege to truly understand what it is like to be disabled? (Particularly given the breadth of issues that could cover...I mean fuck it, I've NO idea what its like to be blind for example!)..

Do we want people to understand other peoples perspectives and how privilege or the lack of affects them... or just to acknowledge they HAVE privilege others do not?

I am not sure how the former can reasonably be achieved to a useful level, and whilst I do think the latter is important, I think acknowledging one privilege but NOT the lack of others or the existance of over-shadowing factors isn't helpful.

What a terrible way to try and make a point

The 4x you're highlighting doesn't really take into consideration that the population of Africa, for instance, has grown from about 80 million in 1800 to 1.4 billion in 2021. That's about 175x larger. Other populations have also grown exponentially so your point really does fall flat as there's an overall reduction in slavery.

If you read the index and report it properly, instead of point scoring, it's really not a simple issue.

A large factor is slavery for organ removal, much of which finds its way to Western countries who have the resources and healthcare systems to benefit.

The rest relates to forced marriage or human trafficking by organised crime. Much of those countries are in conflict and some, like North Korea have dictatorships that have state enforced systems.

It's definitely not good but the difference is, the UK has always claimed to hold the moral high ground over dictators and other oppressive regimes.

Only just last month we found that Churchill was behind massive human rights abuses in Kenya, where the UK government hid and denied state organised torture of Kenyan who just wanted their country back from the English, who had colonised and taken over. Yet these people were reported in the UK press as terrorists. Absolutely disgusting when Churchill is lauded as the saviour of WW2.

This is whitewashing of history is a disgrace and whilst regular white folks shouldn't feel guilty for past atrocities, the government shouldn't be hiding or covering up its bloody history.

The world is significantly kinder to me as a white blond woman than my DH as a black man. Every single day we are treated differently by many in society.

I don't get followed around waitrose by security guards. My DH has been denied entry to his work building about 10x, chased down the corridor to demand to see his I'D. Stopped and searched by police twice. Refused entry to clubs. People moved away from him on the tube. Someone accused him of kidnapping our son who is light skinned in the playground.

The list could be 5 pages long. Not a single one of these has ever happened to me.

@BryceQuinlanTheFirst i second everything you said bar the kidnap bit as my children look more like their father.
We are trying to buy a house at present and suffering racism over where are money comes from. I don't anybody white has been asked to show a estate agent their bank account and employment contract. Happened to us twice and it is not ID It is to view a house!

@SavBbunny
I'm sorry you have to put up with that shit. And how can you complain, it's these micro aggressions constantly.

We were invited for an early jab as my son is disabled. They refused to give my DH his until he proved our son had a disability and made him show medical records in a huge queue of people. When he questioned this, they told him to stop being aggressive and he would be removed from the premise with security. Of course come my turn no-one batted an eyelid.

It's these moments constantly.

@BryceQuinlanTheFirst ditto my husband who is a public sector worker. He went out every Sunday to deliver covid tests in the lock down. He is a lovely man and has recently been accused of being a drug dealer by a national estate agent. He has never even smoked a fag! Unless you see how people treat POC you have no idea. It is shit. My aunt at my wedding said 'I would prefer if he was white' I replied so would he. I thought it had got better, that I am afraid is bollo*ks.