Parents not upsetting people who can’t have kids

[PlumPudd]

Read this article in the Guardian with interest, about the need for people with kids to be very conscious of the pain people without kids around them might be feeling, and how friendships can break up when one person is able to have kids and the other can’t.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/06/new-parent-friend-children-baby-grief?CMP=fb_cif#comment-158514602

As someone with one kid and a second on the way, and some old friends / a sibling around me who don’t have kids (some who want them but haven’t found a partner, one who is struggling to conceive), I do try to be careful not to constantly talk about mine or say things like “gosh you went to the theatre then had a lie in the next day, I’m so jealous.” Even though I am very jealous. Also try to not always suggest meet ups with them at the park with baby in tow (though most meet ups do have to be like this as it’s just when I have more time to meet and gives partner valuable alone time to cook, read, be a person rather than a parent.

However, it is also legitimately hard not to sometimes talk about your kids or bring your baby along to a meet up, because when they are young, they consume your life in a way that is sometimes good and sometimes bad : exhausting!! I’d love to be able to chat to friends about the books I’m reading, the day trips I’ve been on, the exhibitions I’m going to visit, what’s going on in politics at the moment but since having a baby the time I have to do any of those things has literally shrunk by about 85%. You also do start spending a bit more time with other parents because they also care about objectively boring stuff like sleep schedules and catchment areas, and they also don’t mind hanging out in awful kid friendly cafes and soft plays.

Curious to hear views about what parents and those who want to be parents can do to accommodate each other’s lives without causing hurt.

Are you saying your baby wasn't worth it?

@FirewomanSam just ignore the trolls. It's akin to someone who is a size 10 moaning to their size 16 friend about how far they are. It's tactless. I've had the "I don't want to be an old mum" comment too. I think it doesn't occur to some ppl don't realise you don't always get a choice!

*fat (typo sorry!)

Thanks! Glad you got what I meant. Supporting a friend with serious concerns is one thing, having to repeatedly hear ‘I’m so lucky I managed to conceive at 35, I’m so old!’ when you’ve been TTC for years and are in fact now older than 35 is just a bit upsetting.

But it's that kind of comment people are saying is insensitive. It's implying the childless person is lucky because they didn't have to go through that. Whereas someone who wants a child would give anything to go through that hell. It's like saying to someone after a miscarriage, "at least you won't have to go through the pain of childbirth".

Someone actually said something along those lines to me after my first (of several) losses which was actually physically abd mentally horrendous and personally to me was a much worse experience than giving birth to DS and recovery after. I had PTSD after, still have it. I really wanted to punch that person in the face there and then.

All of the "at least" silver lining type comments should be banned IMO.

Yes but I didn’t say “you’re so lucky you don’t have kids, if you did you’d get gastro four times in a year and be hospitalised every time.” I said, that I could completely understand how if a person with kids was at a low moment and talking about how having kids can be so tough, that was legitimate for them to say, but that on the other hand if the person listening really wanted kids they’d probably be silently thinking “I’d take your cracked nipples and exhaustion if it meant having a kid”. Then I added as a light comment, but not the gastro nobody would take that.

It was said in the context of saying how even when new parents are legitimately struggling and seeking support for their struggles, that could still really hurt other people and that it was a complex situation. If I’d said it apropos of nothing, you’d probably be right, but I think you can probably see what my meaning is from the whole comment no?

It's disgraceful. I don't know what is wrong with people. My mum died when I was in my early 20s and someone actually said to me that I'm lucky that I don't have to watch her get old and frail like their mother. I just looked at her.

I was married for 20 years before my DC was born. The worst was the smug 'you're not a family until you have children' brigade

This thread is an other example where women (especially mothers) have to give up their own identity and be ever so careful, mindful sensitive and walk on tip toes in order to please others.

You hadn't told her that you wanted children though.

I know plenty of people without children, I don't know if they are childless or childfree, and I don't ask, because that would be crass and insensitive. We can't assume things about people, and we can't edit everything we say on the basis that they might be upset about somehting they have never even talked about.

Be reasonable. Everyone has their own shit. Everyone is dealing with something. Of course some people are going to say things to you that you find offensive or insensitive, but I guarantee you have said things that others find offensive or insensitive.

Yes, but you still said it...you made a joke...in front of women who are struggling with infertility, on a thread specifically about people needing to show more sensitivity around childlessness.

Somebody has told me that.

Any sentence that starts with “at least” needs to end before it gets said out loud.

@PlumPudd you have absolute no idea what women struggling with infertility would put themselves through to end up with a living baby. I am really surprised you’re continuing to argue your point. I’m sure your pregnancy was awful. I genuinely mean it that I would swap places with you without a second thought.

@PlumPudd Yes definitely myself and my best friend were pregnant at the same time and I lost my pregnancy and she’s due on my twins due date. Let’s be honest she’s got the better deal, her baby is healthy and she’s getting the nursery ready whilst I’m grieving. But you are right, I know she misses me and hurts not being able to talk to me.

Its good to understand that everyone has valid feelings. Of course I’d rather go through the sickness etc to have a baby but that doesn’t mean my friends have to love their sickness because I lost my pregnancy if that makes sense. It works for everything, I’m married and live with DH and my best friend is single and wishes she had someone. She’d probably rather the wedding stress I had and the odd arguments with DH than be single when it’s something she wants desperately. But my own stresses are still valid x

I have 2 children but also struggled with infertility for many years. From my perspective, I can say with absolutely clarity that parenting young children is exhausting, overwhelming and at times all-consuming but that it doesn’t compare with the heartbreak, pain and utter loneliness of not being able to conceive. I mean this in a kind way - if you can’t imagine what it’s like not to be able to have children that you desperately want, you are ever so lucky.

It is entirely possible for people who can’t conceive to love your children, want to see them and be part of their lives etc. while also feeling sad for themselves. If they’re friendships you really value, you should (IMO) make time to spend with those people, without your children, without making them feel bad about it - not every time, but sometimes.

Be reasonable. Everyone has their own shit. Everyone is dealing with something. Of course some people are going to say things to you that you find offensive or insensitive, but I guarantee you have said things that others find offensive or insensitive.

That we can both agree on! No arguments here on any of those points.

The thread was asking what kinds of things childless people might find hurtful or upsetting so I answered honestly. I didn’t say my friend was awful for her comments or that I’ve cut her off as a friend because of it or that she should walk on eggshells around me forever more or that I’ll never forgive her. I also didn’t say I’ve never said anything that’s ever offended her or anyone else. I just gave an example of a comment that irked me. If that makes me unreasonable then so be it.

OP, you're right, parenting is hard. BUT one only understands this perception when ones becomes a parent. So the thing is, any (completely justified) moans about it to people who are struggling openly or in silence may well be hurtful to them. I moan to fellow mums who are not TTC or done with kids, or on here, on suitable threads. It IS hard and there's no point in minimising.

But looking back, when I was dying to become a parent, the pain and grief of that was of a very different kind and incomparably harder to carry every day. Again, this is why I'm selective about who I talk to.

In fact, the grief never went away and it's often the case rainbow parents deal with a double whammy of grief and the usual parenting struggles, not easy to navigate either.

“It’s as if you are pressing your nose against the sweet-shop window of life, and you’re never ever going to be on the other side.”
**
“How do you say to someone “I desperately want what you have” without making them feel uncomfortable?”

Every adult with half a brain knows that parenthood is not like a sweet shop whether they have kids or not.
And nobody says I desperately want what you have to a woman in a psychiatric ward, suicidal with PND or parents struggling with a child with severe disabilities.
This is somebody with a very immature, idealised notion of parenthood who probably spends way too much time looking at photos on SM and ignoring the reality of parenthood IRL.
This is a grown woman who uses a phrase like “friendship apocalypse “ seriously.
She sounds like a fourteen year old.
I don’t have a social group of female friends who are all becoming mothers all at the one time but my sister and her dh have been struggling to conceive for a long time and I try my best to be sensitive to them.
I’ve had a hard time adjusting to motherhood and I’m unlikely to be making it seem like a trip to the sweet shop anyway. The same sister once said to me when I was struggling with mh problems and a newborn “thanks a lot. You have put me right off having kids with all your crying and moaning about it “.
Insensitivity goes both ways. It is also insensitive to compare an idealised version of hypothetical motherhood to somebody else’s reality and make them feel like shit about themselves.
It is generally not deliberately insensitive to simply talk about your kids or complain that your tired or whatever.
Most people who want kids and can’t have them would not take this attitude and I hope most people with kids would be sensitive to anyone they knew who’s struggling to conceive or had to accept childlessness because it is the non-dickhead thing to do. They shouldn’t need reminding.
Infertility is hard. Parenthood can also be very hard. There’s no point in comparing the two.

Slow clap.

No. This thread is to show people like you that others can be empathetic. I say this as a mother. A mother to a living child and those that I lost. Nothing to fucking do with being a mother and losing identity. I wish you could at least pretend to be polite, if kind is too much, instead of posting this.

Fair enough, sorry if it hurt, perhaps any kind of lighthearted remark isn’t right for this topic. I’m not trying at argue that you are wrong, just that I didn’t mean what you were saying I meant aka “you’re lucky not to have to have gastro”. It was just meant as a comment about the awfulness of gastro, nothing more.

I did actually start this thread, specifically to ask what people’s views were, and I did struggle with infertility before getting pregnant myself, as well as my wife and I having to save for years to be able to afford to pay for fertility treatment, because we’re gay and the NHS didn’t (until about a month ago) fund anything for female female couples, until you had already paid for six rounds of IUI at a private clinic yourself, and bought your own sperm. Something which costs about twelve grand all together. I also had many moments of silently resenting friends who were able to just have sex and get pregnant, and who didn’t have to save, then go though invasive medical procedures many of which failed.

I am actually lost for words 😮

We struggled for years to conceive, then DH was diagnosed with azoospermia. He literally had a 0% sperm count, and had to have a sperm retrieval, which we were told he had a 50% chance of them finding any. Luckily they did.
We were then left in this sort of limbo for what felt like an eternity, waiting for NHS appointments, dealing with cancellations due to Covid, etc. I don't have the words to describe how upsetting and anxiety provoking all this was. I was crying at pregnancy announcements, crying myself to sleep some nights, that sort of thing.
We decided to do IVF privately and were lucky enough to be successful first time round, DS is 15 months now. We also have a spare embryo we will try again with in future.
It's easy to forget the horrendous emotional strain of it all now. My heart goes out to anyone struggling in this way.

No it’s not @Ylvamoon. I started this thread because I was interested in hearing people’s views from all perspectives about coping with an issue that is very hard to understand unless you’ve experienced it. There are umpteen million threads about motherhood elsewhere on mumsnet. This one is about how people with kids and people who want them can relate to and support each other. If you feel silenced by people on here sharing what upsets them and what doesn’t (clearly it’s often highly personal as there have been plenty of people here saying they struggle with infertility and either love or hate to hear about other peoples children). Then you can start a different thread

It's the same for anyone with a difference. I have a disabled child, and as anyone else who has will tell you, we quickly grow a thick skin. If I got hurt at every comment my friends make celebrating the achievements of their non-disabled children (achievements my child won't ever get close to) I'd spend my whole life crying. My child being disabled doesn't mean I can't be happy for people with normal kids who are doing really well, or even who just aren't doing badly. I can't expect every parent, or every person, to understand what it's like to raise a disabled child, so nor can I expect them never to unwittingly say something that might sting.