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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU - team holiday requests

272 replies

aibuboss · 06/09/2022 06:36

This is playing on my mind and I know I will get honest replies here. NC because it's potentially outing...

I am A in this situation.

A is a senior manager with a small team- B is a manager too (£50k salary to demonstrate seniority) and directly line manages Employee C.

September is normally a busy time for us so holidays not really feasible unless an exceptional circumstance. The team is only 5 people, all quite different jobs, so only ever one on leave at a time unless it's August (quiet month).

I have recently approved a week off for B in September as they told me they needed to travel abroad to sort out some urgent paperwork for an elderly relative. Yesterday C declined a meeting request for the same week telling me that she was on holiday.

C hasn't booked through online holiday booking but did sent B an email that she's approved - it was before her request (via booking system). B didn't tell me this. I was fuming and told them yesterday they have told them they have until lunchtime today to sort it out between them and agree who is taking it else it's unpaid for both. Both have already booked overseas travel.

On reflection I actually think B should be the one to cancel or be unpaid- she should have known the holiday was overlapping from the email she'd approved. C has booked a holiday in good faith. This isn't the first performance issue I have with B and am now thinking about issuing a warning based on ineffective management- she shouldn't have approved C's leave anyway because of workloads (no exceptional circumstances- it's a 2 week all inclusive cheap deal!).

AIBU??

OP posts:
Megifer · 06/09/2022 14:02

Invoke full on disciplinary process i should say

WaveyHair · 06/09/2022 14:04

I would still be interested in why C used an official system. It is usually part of company policy to follow it. Is C new and made a mistake or just trying to circumnavigate it? Was C in collaboration with B that they could both take time off and A never find out until it was too late?

Brefugee · 06/09/2022 14:05

Eh? So B approves an annual leave on email but I'm expected to know this but equally B isn't expected to remember it?

because C did not follow the vacation approval process - emails aren't that process so until something is in the system and approved it doesn't exist. It's not rocket science.

All they both need is reminding of the procedures and that they are to be followed at all times. Not all this overblown, guaranteed to piss everyone off (you have heard of quiet-quitting, right?) disciplinary stuff.

B shot themselves in the foot by approving Cs leave. B may have changed their arrangements, decided to quit or anything. You won't know because you apparently don't talk to them on a human level.

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 14:08

If OP was my boss I'd have grievance'd her into next week, or quit. Maybe both. Any boss that is "fuming" after an easy holiday mix up really is out of their depth.

WitTanks · 06/09/2022 14:57

The more I read this thread the worse you come across, OP. I wouldn't blame both employees if they resigned

babyjellyfish · 06/09/2022 15:22

OP, please listen to the advice on this thread, otherwise you're likely to find yourself with bigger staffing issues than two people being away the same week in September.

ShesNotTheMessiah · 06/09/2022 15:24

I am meeting B at 3pm to let them know that I will be invoking a formal investigation with the possibility of issuing a disciplinary warning as well as instigating formal capability measures (this is not the first 'genuine mistake' by far).

Oh dear. Not the way to handle this at all.

Wexone · 06/09/2022 15:27

Wait for an update on OP as she will loose both staff -

gatehouseoffleet · 06/09/2022 15:32

I am meeting B at 3pm to let them know that I will be invoking a formal investigation with the possibility of issuing a disciplinary warning as well as instigating formal capability measures (this is not the first 'genuine mistake' by far

talk about kicking someone when they are down! Do you have elderly relatives yourself? Or children. Or even a dog? Do you have interests outside work?

Sometimes, life has to come first. My mum is in her early 80s and often needs help with things, especially now so much has to be done online and even though she'd not tech unsavvy, she needs help. I think you need to be a bit more forgiving.

And I suggest you take responsibility for your (tiny) team's leave requests and then this can't happen again. All I would say to B is that she messed up regarding C's leave conflicting with her own and that you won't be pleased if it happens again. Then move on and do some actual work.

WaveyHair · 06/09/2022 15:33

B told me when she approved C's request she didn't actually read the email properly but to make matters worse C requested the leave on the holiday booking system last night and B approved it this morning- WTAF?

So B & C both realised they have messed up here. B messed up twice-dates & process. C I suspect is taking the piss and tried to sneak in a September break which would not normally be allowed?

I am on side with you here OP - these two have failed to follow company process and got caught out. Now they are trying to cover their tracks.

beachcitygirl · 06/09/2022 15:35

C should be reminded to use correct processes. Gentle reprimand.

I would wipe the floor with B

CornishGem1975 · 06/09/2022 15:41

What an awful "manager" you sound OP. I'm glad you're not my boss.

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 15:45

WaveyHair · 06/09/2022 15:33

B told me when she approved C's request she didn't actually read the email properly but to make matters worse C requested the leave on the holiday booking system last night and B approved it this morning- WTAF?

So B & C both realised they have messed up here. B messed up twice-dates & process. C I suspect is taking the piss and tried to sneak in a September break which would not normally be allowed?

I am on side with you here OP - these two have failed to follow company process and got caught out. Now they are trying to cover their tracks.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you may have a point. But this will be so difficult to prove and unless OP has some kind of real evidence then she really can't approach it on this basis. All she can really do is accept that these 2 are both away, and set out her expectations for a holiday process going forward. If B's part forms part of a pattern then she needs to properly manage that situation as part of a performance appraisal.

Christmasiscominghohoho · 06/09/2022 16:02

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 14:08

If OP was my boss I'd have grievance'd her into next week, or quit. Maybe both. Any boss that is "fuming" after an easy holiday mix up really is out of their depth.

I agree. She sounds a total nightmare and power mad.

blueshoes · 06/09/2022 16:05

Maybe B has decided to push off for a better boss and will resign soon.

If there are issues with her performance, that is actually a very good result. The issue is that incompetent people (for whatever reason) tend to stick around and give managers an ongoing and timesucking problem to solve.

So much easier to start the process to hire someone else than to try to make someone do their job properly.

Civitavecchia · 06/09/2022 16:06

I am so so happy you are not my boss. Incredible how a single person could make such a difference.
Also, the comment about her mother not being from UK...very bad.

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 16:10

I am really overinvested in this thread. I just find underqualified, overpromoted, uncompassionate and adversarial middle managers on a power trip just so offensive.

I had a manager at a call centre in my early 20s who used to ban internet use for the rank and file, as well as eating at our desks (obviously not when on a call or waiting) and would try her level best to throw the book at anyone who broke this rule, but would sit at her desk all afternoon laying horseracing bets whilst munching her way through a family pack of doritos at the same bank of desks!

nutellachurro · 06/09/2022 16:14

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 16:10

I am really overinvested in this thread. I just find underqualified, overpromoted, uncompassionate and adversarial middle managers on a power trip just so offensive.

I had a manager at a call centre in my early 20s who used to ban internet use for the rank and file, as well as eating at our desks (obviously not when on a call or waiting) and would try her level best to throw the book at anyone who broke this rule, but would sit at her desk all afternoon laying horseracing bets whilst munching her way through a family pack of doritos at the same bank of desks!

I know right

B is such a shitty middle manager

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 16:16

As is A. Both seem incapable. But B isn't asking for advice.

nutellachurro · 06/09/2022 16:18

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 16:16

As is A. Both seem incapable. But B isn't asking for advice.

How is A being a shit manager?

You're projecting based on your last post tbh

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 16:27

Because:

  1. She is assuming the worst of the employees and assuming malice and collusion without evidence
  2. Seeking to punish C for B's slip up
  3. Failing to take account or understand B's personal circumstances which appear pretty challenging
  4. Colluding in a policy of banning holiday for nearly 20% of the year
  5. Managing a team that cannot cope unless at full strength
  6. Talk about summary judgements like Nero or something such as making approved holiday unpaid
Thats just a start.
blueshoes · 06/09/2022 16:30

So B and C are either incompetent or trying to play the system and got found out or both.

So how does that make A a shit manager?

Are people surprised that managers have feelings? A good manager will not show it to her reports and vents to her partner or on mn instead but trust me, they know all the tricks because it has been played on them before in one form or another.

I cannot comment on pisstaking managers that some of you work for. I have no doubt they also exist. I am only commenting on the OP's scenario.

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 16:38

It may well be that B and C are incompetent but that doesn't mean that A can just go around cancelling holidays that have been approved, effectively dishing out summary punishment without investigation. A is responsible for the competency of her staff. The fact that she thinks she can just say, "right that's it, both unpaid" or "tough that you've booked a £3k non-refundable holiday after your manager said it was ok, but its cancelled" shows that she has no rights calling herself competent.

rookiemere · 06/09/2022 16:56

But @Everanewbie if you read OPs subsequent updates, her position has changed.

She sounds like she might be a bit inexperienced- I tended to take things too personally when I was newer in role - but she came to Mumsnet for guidance and appears to have taken that on board.

Some people appear to have unrealistic ideas of how a workplace operates- compassionate leave to sort out paperwork for example - and no manager could ever fulfil the demands.

We also don't know what Bs attitude is like on this, which I suspect is the crux of the issue. If she was "oh my goodness, what a mistake I've made, it's going to leave us short on that week when we're both away. Shall I see if I can change the flights/work remotely/ train up D ?" then I suspect OP wouldn't be posting here.

Original poster
aibuboss · 06/09/2022 16:56

Civitavecchia · 06/09/2022 16:06

I am so so happy you are not my boss. Incredible how a single person could make such a difference.
Also, the comment about her mother not being from UK...very bad.

Not really, the whole purpose of her leave is to travel overseas as she can't deal with the overseas bank from the UK.

If mother was from the UK she wouldn't need to travel or take leave. The comment was in relation to giving paid compassionate leave.

OP posts:
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