Page 7 | AIBU - team holiday requests

aibuboss · 2022-09-06T05:36:38+00:00

This is playing on my mind and I know I will get honest replies here. NC because it's potentially outing... I am A in this situation. A is a senior manager with a small team- B is a manager too (£50k salary to demonstrate seniority) and directly line manages Employee C. September is normally a busy time for us so holidays not really feasible unless an exceptional circumstance. The team is only 5 people, all quite different jobs, so only ever one on leave at a time unless it's August (quiet month). I have recently approved a week off for B in September as they told me they needed to travel abroad to sort out some urgent paperwork for an elderly relative. Yesterday C declined a meeting request for the same week telling me that she was on holiday. C hasn't booked through online holiday booking but did sent B an email that she's approved - it was before her request (via booking system). B didn't tell me this. I was fuming and told them yesterday they have told them they have until lunchtime today to sort it out between them and agree who is taking it else it's unpaid for both. Both have already booked overseas travel. On reflection I actually think B should be the one to cancel or be unpaid- she should have known the holiday was overlapping from the email she'd approved. C has booked a holiday in good faith. This isn't the first performance issue I have with B and am now thinking about issuing a warning based on ineffective management- she shouldn't have approved C's leave anyway because of workloads (no exceptional circumstances- it's a 2 week all inclusive cheap deal!). AIBU??

BillyBobBear · 06/09/2022 10:26

Honestly, if you can't manage for one week (I'm assuming 5 working days) to have two people out then I think you have bigger problems. What do you do when you're all off sick?

Both B & C are in the wrong here however, B evidently is having a tough time and C has had her leave approved by a manager.

Suck it up. You'll all be fine.

theemmadilemma · 06/09/2022 10:26

Isn't people management fun?

My guess is that because C didn't use the appropriate booking system, did B check that before booking her own and believe the time was unbooked? Did she believe C had appropriately used the booking system when booking the holiday and expect it to be there to see?

I would need to raise with B that she approved C's holiday in the first instance and that she didn't ensure it was correctly booked.

But on reflection, if there was no way to accomodate both, I'd be cancelling C's holiday request on basis that it is not exceptional circumstances and that it was not booked correctly.

I'd have to address B's performance alongside this.

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 10:31

theemmadilemma · 06/09/2022 10:26

Isn't people management fun?

My guess is that because C didn't use the appropriate booking system, did B check that before booking her own and believe the time was unbooked? Did she believe C had appropriately used the booking system when booking the holiday and expect it to be there to see?

I would need to raise with B that she approved C's holiday in the first instance and that she didn't ensure it was correctly booked.

But on reflection, if there was no way to accomodate both, I'd be cancelling C's holiday request on basis that it is not exceptional circumstances and that it was not booked correctly.

I'd have to address B's performance alongside this.

And have C lose the money on their holiday that they booked in good faith? Whether or not they used the booking system they asked for it, it was granted by their direct report so they paid for the holiday. This is a failure of management from A and B and the company need to suck it up. If my boss did what you were proposing I would quit on the spot, then the resourcing would be even more screwed. What would A do then? Ban holidays until they recruited?

LakieLady · 06/09/2022 10:38

B would be on a warning and C reminder to use the system

I think a warning would be a bit strong for B, but it's definitely a performance management issue, so would raise it at their supervision and it would get them a big markdown at their annual appraisal if I was managing them. I'd also ask them to change their dates, as they got the "exceptional circumstances" approval by not disclosing C's leave arrangements. I can't see that a couple of weeks delay in getting POA is that time sensitive.

A reminder for C would be enough imo, but the real culpability for C's actions lies with B again - they shouldn't have approved by email (or at all!) and should have told C that they have to use the system, not email.

Making the leave unpaid for C would be unfair imo, as B failed to make C book leave in accordance with established procedure. And it will be counter-productive, as they'll have another week's paid leave they still have to take.

It's crossed my mind that, if you have 5 staff, all getting 5 weeks' leave, and leave can't be taken in April or September, it must be damn difficult for them to find a fortnight they can have leave when no-one else is off. I was on a team of 17, with a "no more than 3 off" rule, but no other restriction as to when leave could be taken, and it was hard to find weeks you could take leave unless you got in and booked it at the start of the year.

rumporolypolyofthebailey · 06/09/2022 10:38

A team of 5 with 2 managers? 1 too many ... (misses point)

Redburnett · 06/09/2022 10:39

I always feel a bit uncomfortable when senior managers post on MN for advice with employment issues. Very unprofessional.

youlightupmyday · 06/09/2022 10:42

Redburnett · 06/09/2022 10:39

I always feel a bit uncomfortable when senior managers post on MN for advice with employment issues. Very unprofessional.

Whatevs. Same as any other conundrum.

RedHelenB · 06/09/2022 10:43

LittleOwl153 · 06/09/2022 10:03

I would cancel both sets of leave (assuming you are within the timescales for C).

I would cancel C because of the no leave in September rule, and because they didn't follow the correct booking procedure.

I would cancel B because they didn't follow the no leave in Sept and no more than 1 person off rules and by not following procedure and putting Cs leave on the system caused additional problems. (I would assume this was deliberate but it doesn't matter at this point).

I would speak to HR about what is possible re warnings/disciplinary. But then I would come down quite harsh on people mucking about like this. They both knew they were not following rules and trying it on!

I think you'd end up with two resignations/ on sick leave if you did this.

WithFlamingLocksOfAuburnHair · 06/09/2022 10:46

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 10:02

I work in finance and have done for the last 15 years. Yes, some of the firms I work for restrict holiday in the second half of March and the first week or so in April as we reach tax year end, but there blanket ban, but a more cautious management. Plus this represents about 5-7% of the year, not nearly 17%.

You can't go round rescinding approved holidays.

Show quote history

Depends on the role. If you work for a company that has quarterly SEC filings in roles like revenue recognition or investor relations you just know that there's a week or two every quarter that you have to prioritise work. When we hired people in these roles we made it very clear the times of year when there would be no leave granted. If this happened in that role it'd be a disciplinary.

CG1991 · 06/09/2022 10:48

Whilst it’s not ideal, is it not possible to manage with them both on annual leave?

Your structure sounds bizarre. Out of interest, what do you do in the event of long term sickness, compassionate leave etc?

You’ve referenced previous performance issues with one of them - is that the real problem.

I manage two teams cross sites and wouldn’t dream of issuing any sort of warning for something as menial as an annual leave screw up.

Be very careful how you handle this.

GreenFingersWouldBeHandy · 06/09/2022 10:49

If C didn't use the 'approved booking system' then it's him or her that needs to cancel or move their holiday.

B should not have approved it.

And A sounds like she needs a better approach to managing her 'team'.

PhillySub · 06/09/2022 10:51

You are the manager, sort it out. Whoever booked leave first goes, the other doesn't. How can you say there there is only leave in exceptional circumstances in September but when confronted with having to make a decision you then say that you can both have time off but unpaid?

GreenFingersWouldBeHandy · 06/09/2022 10:52

PS; Even if you 'give' them unpaid leave, they'll both be off at the same time. So the original problem still stands.

Can your team of 5 not cope as a team of 3 for a week?

blueshoes · 06/09/2022 10:53

Popaholic · 06/09/2022 08:26

There are loads of jobs like this, where everyone knows holiday won’t be approved at certain times of year. And it can be literally impossible to cover in a small team - for example in a finance role there could be a separation of tasks to avoid fraud or to manage banking systems, or in a technical role some skills may belong only to one or two people in a team who cannot therefore be off at the same time.

I think it’s ok to show some frustration but it’s excessive to be fuming. This isn’t a healthy management style. You need to demonstrate through discussion why B’s decisions have created a problem and engage B to figure out how to solve the problem B created. That’s how you develop good managers. Getting shouty then fixing the problem yourself in an aggressive way only teaches B to be afraid of taking a wrong decision in future, and will cause B to become dithery.

What did B say when you put them on the spot and asked for their detailed plan to cover the vacation? Maybe B can think of a way through it . Maybe not, but B should feel the pain of thinking through how to solve the issue.

B is completely at fault, and sounds like a weak manager who wants to be liked. But… Your job is to ensure B has the understanding to assess whether the vacation should be approved, and the strength to say no in a reasonable way to B’s staff when needed.

Also... worth reflecting if you are known for being a harsh or volatile manager, maybe B is playing Good Cop to your Bad Cop?

Tell B they need to issue a memo to the team, cc’d to you, noting a mistake occurred with the holiday bookings in September and B wants to clarify that NO holiday is able to be approved in September or April without exceptional cause and ALL holiday must be requested via the holiday booking system or is otherwise invalid.

if B is only going away to sort out a POA I would insist either:

the trip is delayed or accelerated by half a week to mitigate the impact of the holiday clash, and B could take a laptop and work remotely, making up time in the weekend, evenings and/or working half days in the daytime to keep on top of work and emails. The hours worked whilst away would then be logged at normal rate (not out of hours) and added back to B’s holiday balance.
offer paid overtime to the other staff before going to the effort of getting a temp
B delays their trip by one week

This is a good and reasonable solution.

I am not fond of managing people and holidays are a particular flashpoint with some reports, mostly the ones who weren't that dedicated in the first place. But most people are sensible though you get the occasional crunch like this.

Another method (which was used in a previous team I worked) is to invite holiday requests well in advance for hot times e.g. Christmas/NY or in your case September. That way, everyone's request gets considered in the round (rather than first-come-first served) and anyone who does not put in a request then does not get their leave approved. Of course, you might still get the odd sick relative or illness issue pop up at the last minute.

I would performance manage B and, apart from the booking procedures, try to get in front of the holiday situation next time and send reminders about restricted booking periods. Sorry you are having a hard time. Being a manager is often thankless so sympathies and good luck with growing a thick skin.

SimonAndGarthsUncle · 06/09/2022 10:57

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theemmadilemma · 06/09/2022 10:58

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 10:31

And have C lose the money on their holiday that they booked in good faith? Whether or not they used the booking system they asked for it, it was granted by their direct report so they paid for the holiday. This is a failure of management from A and B and the company need to suck it up. If my boss did what you were proposing I would quit on the spot, then the resourcing would be even more screwed. What would A do then? Ban holidays until they recruited?

Show quote history

And in my role, I would deal with the resource issue, allow both holidays and deal with the other issues seperately.

But OP says that's not option. So if a choice has to be made (and sometimes in people management your role is literally to give out the shitty shits) then that's what I would have done. If I HAD TO.

theemmadilemma · 06/09/2022 10:59

*shitty sticks. 😂

giveovernate · 06/09/2022 11:02

GreenFingersWouldBeHandy · 06/09/2022 10:52

PS; Even if you 'give' them unpaid leave, they'll both be off at the same time. So the original problem still stands.

Can your team of 5 not cope as a team of 3 for a week?

Exactly and then they have more annual leave to come which impacts the company more?

AngelaChasesBestLife · 06/09/2022 11:03

I think you are have lost sight of the fact that there are two types of leave here. C is on annual leave, B should have been given compassionate leave or time off for dependents. That she has requested time for this suggests things are close to a point of crisis. The fact that B has overlooked asking C to request her leave in the correct way is not a performance issue. It could be indicative of stress, but it certainly isn’t “ineffective management.” It’s a slip up at best and we’ve all been there. The PPs suggesting you should mark her down in her appraisal or agreeing with your suggestion of performance management are equally as appalling examples of people management.

Your team sounds over hierarchical as other PP’s have pointed out with two senior managers in a team of five. How B manages her report is not down to you to micro-manage. If there’s not enough flex in your team for two employees to be off at the same time then you really need to be addressing your resourcing issues with your manager or leadership team. If you can afford temps to cover what’s a relatively short period of absence you can surely afford additional staff. There is clearly a resilience issue in your organisation if it cannot withstand two employees being off at the same time.

I’m a senior manager and I wouldn’t dream of approaching this situation in the adversarial way you seem to be. I honestly couldn’t get excited about any of this. To be “fuming” about all of this is unprofessional and an over-reaction. This is an opportunity for you demonstrate leadership and people management skills, not implement unnecessary punitative sanctions. Threatening unpaid leave and performance management will do nothing but create unhappiness and low morale within your team. That you’ve posted on a public forum with this question indicates that you feel insecure in your competence and in your decision making as a manager. You need to be checking in on B to ensure she’s ok and what you can do to support her. Let C have her holiday. If you “must” do something to reassert your authority (which I think is why you’ve reacted like this, as in some way you seem to feel undermined) then send an email reminding everyone of the correct procedure is for booking leave but frankly I wouldn’t pay this any further thought or waste any more time.

You remind me of a manager I had early in my career in the public sector who was a bully and a micromanager. She once hauled our small team into a meeting over a non-issue and announced that she would personally ensure that we were made redundant and not receive any redundancy pay as if this was within her gift. She was managed out eventually but the turnover of staff during her time was horrendous. God knows how much tax payers money was wasted on recruitment for the number of people that came and went during her tenure.

The comments about B’s salary and C’s holiday choice are just bizarre.

"Sort it out between yourselves-" You have gone to great lengths to let us know you're the boss here. They don't need to sort anything, you should be leading.

Everanewbie · 06/09/2022 11:08

AngelaChasesBestLife · 06/09/2022 11:03

I think you are have lost sight of the fact that there are two types of leave here. C is on annual leave, B should have been given compassionate leave or time off for dependents. That she has requested time for this suggests things are close to a point of crisis. The fact that B has overlooked asking C to request her leave in the correct way is not a performance issue. It could be indicative of stress, but it certainly isn’t “ineffective management.” It’s a slip up at best and we’ve all been there. The PPs suggesting you should mark her down in her appraisal or agreeing with your suggestion of performance management are equally as appalling examples of people management.

Your team sounds over hierarchical as other PP’s have pointed out with two senior managers in a team of five. How B manages her report is not down to you to micro-manage. If there’s not enough flex in your team for two employees to be off at the same time then you really need to be addressing your resourcing issues with your manager or leadership team. If you can afford temps to cover what’s a relatively short period of absence you can surely afford additional staff. There is clearly a resilience issue in your organisation if it cannot withstand two employees being off at the same time.

I’m a senior manager and I wouldn’t dream of approaching this situation in the adversarial way you seem to be. I honestly couldn’t get excited about any of this. To be “fuming” about all of this is unprofessional and an over-reaction. This is an opportunity for you demonstrate leadership and people management skills, not implement unnecessary punitative sanctions. Threatening unpaid leave and performance management will do nothing but create unhappiness and low morale within your team. That you’ve posted on a public forum with this question indicates that you feel insecure in your competence and in your decision making as a manager. You need to be checking in on B to ensure she’s ok and what you can do to support her. Let C have her holiday. If you “must” do something to reassert your authority (which I think is why you’ve reacted like this, as in some way you seem to feel undermined) then send an email reminding everyone of the correct procedure is for booking leave but frankly I wouldn’t pay this any further thought or waste any more time.

You remind me of a manager I had early in my career in the public sector who was a bully and a micromanager. She once hauled our small team into a meeting over a non-issue and announced that she would personally ensure that we were made redundant and not receive any redundancy pay as if this was within her gift. She was managed out eventually but the turnover of staff during her time was horrendous. God knows how much tax payers money was wasted on recruitment for the number of people that came and went during her tenure.

The comments about B’s salary and C’s holiday choice are just bizarre.

"Sort it out between yourselves-" You have gone to great lengths to let us know you're the boss here. They don't need to sort anything, you should be leading.

Superb. Hit the nail on the head here.

LetItBeCake · 06/09/2022 11:10

Remember you have to maintain a working relationship with B and C long after the holiday debacle, so applying punitive measures to either party will demotivate them, making your job more difficult. They could also submit a grievance against you. In this case, your actions will be easier to justify if they are a reasonable response to a difficult situation.

In terms of remedies, requiring A&B to take unpaid leave does nothing to solve the immediate issue.

C (being junior) is less culpable). They should be reminded to follow correct procedure in future but allowed to take their holiday.

B’s actions should be subject to an informal investigation.B should be asked to explain the chain of circumstances. Depending on B’s answers and the impact of the error, B could be given an informal warning and asked to reschedule their flight.

It is legal to cancel an employees leave provided legal or contractual notice is given
www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/booking-time-off-

BloodyMabel · 06/09/2022 11:11

Are you sure B is to be trusted? Can you ask for proof that their leave is needed and they’re not just taking a holiday? Their actions don’t seem very honest.

I’ve been in C’s position (not in a busy period) and threatened to resign over it when I was told to cancel my holiday.

mushroom3 · 06/09/2022 11:19

I would suggest B works remotely while they are overseas. C gets a verbal warning as they should have used the booking system. What would you do if more than one was off sick in April/September eg Covid

Glitteratitar · 06/09/2022 11:29

AngelaChasesBestLife · 06/09/2022 11:03

I think you are have lost sight of the fact that there are two types of leave here. C is on annual leave, B should have been given compassionate leave or time off for dependents. That she has requested time for this suggests things are close to a point of crisis. The fact that B has overlooked asking C to request her leave in the correct way is not a performance issue. It could be indicative of stress, but it certainly isn’t “ineffective management.” It’s a slip up at best and we’ve all been there. The PPs suggesting you should mark her down in her appraisal or agreeing with your suggestion of performance management are equally as appalling examples of people management.

Your team sounds over hierarchical as other PP’s have pointed out with two senior managers in a team of five. How B manages her report is not down to you to micro-manage. If there’s not enough flex in your team for two employees to be off at the same time then you really need to be addressing your resourcing issues with your manager or leadership team. If you can afford temps to cover what’s a relatively short period of absence you can surely afford additional staff. There is clearly a resilience issue in your organisation if it cannot withstand two employees being off at the same time.

I’m a senior manager and I wouldn’t dream of approaching this situation in the adversarial way you seem to be. I honestly couldn’t get excited about any of this. To be “fuming” about all of this is unprofessional and an over-reaction. This is an opportunity for you demonstrate leadership and people management skills, not implement unnecessary punitative sanctions. Threatening unpaid leave and performance management will do nothing but create unhappiness and low morale within your team. That you’ve posted on a public forum with this question indicates that you feel insecure in your competence and in your decision making as a manager. You need to be checking in on B to ensure she’s ok and what you can do to support her. Let C have her holiday. If you “must” do something to reassert your authority (which I think is why you’ve reacted like this, as in some way you seem to feel undermined) then send an email reminding everyone of the correct procedure is for booking leave but frankly I wouldn’t pay this any further thought or waste any more time.

You remind me of a manager I had early in my career in the public sector who was a bully and a micromanager. She once hauled our small team into a meeting over a non-issue and announced that she would personally ensure that we were made redundant and not receive any redundancy pay as if this was within her gift. She was managed out eventually but the turnover of staff during her time was horrendous. God knows how much tax payers money was wasted on recruitment for the number of people that came and went during her tenure.

The comments about B’s salary and C’s holiday choice are just bizarre.

"Sort it out between yourselves-" You have gone to great lengths to let us know you're the boss here. They don't need to sort anything, you should be leading.

Excellent post! Please take this in OP.

fruitbrewhaha · 06/09/2022 11:32

I think C is in the wrong. Is it documented that leave cannot be taken in September and that any leave has to be input into the system for approval and info for everyone? If you have this clearly in the policy then C's leave is not approved. I would tell C they need to move their holiday to October. Perhaps as a gesture the company pays the admin fee for moving but not any increase in cost a change of dates makes. I wonder if C purposely asked B rather than using the system because she knew it would be denied?

B is also wrong for "approving" a request via email when this is not the procedure and for not pointing all of this out to C. I would be questioning B ability to manage staff, are B and C god friends? Is B incapable of saying "no"?