To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

@DragonflyNights all 3,000 of them 😂

If malie believes in god can she explain why they are so evil and disgusting such as 😊 giving my relatives cancer.

And don't come back with it's man's choice as that's pure crap. And if you come back with it's part of plan thats crap too.

So basically a massive, society-wide "Just you wait until your father gets home" type thing?

There are a lot of reasons to like religion- chiefly as most have some form of "love thy neighbour" and look after those less fortunate type ideas and many preach forgiveness, tolerance of difference etc- but god as ultimate bogeyman enforcer isn't really one of them.

Given the number of wars and disputes that seem to have religion as the key area of dispute, it doesn't seem the greatest of ideas.
Depending on the reference sourced, a quick google indicated that somewhere between 30 & 60& of UK poulation state they have no religion.
But you carry on believing whichever fairystories you choose entirely your right, as it is mine not to.

& not believing in a God/Gods or organised religion does not render an individual with no sense of social justice.

You find the same issues in Buddhism that you do in Catholicism when it comes to the practice. No matter how the book or writings phrase it, some people find wriggle room for their own interpretation. And then, upon observing the reverence and authority of those further up in the hierarchy of the faith, set out to work their way up as a power play.

Men all over the world yearn to increase their opportunities to abuse small children, younger men and woman. It becomes enticing when the system you are in doesn’t like crappy PR so shuffles you off to a different church or temple, rather than report you to the authorities. An added bonus is the friction between following your faith as represented by its power holders and taking your case to the secular justice system. Which tends to curtail the number of victims’ parents who will choose reporting over acts of contrition and exhibiting forgiveness. Not to forget the nice touch of telling parents they or their little boy must have done something in a past life to have merited his abuse during his “baby monk” period.

Living in Bangkok, married to a Thai, living in a Thai household where everybody was a practising Buddhist was eye opening. Any impression I had that Buddhism was the nice, cuddly version of religion was knocked out of me, bit by bit over all the years. There are pleanty of lovely people who become monks. Probably the majority. But just like every other power structure it suffers from the issue of predators using it as a climbing frame to position themselves better to feed their ego and urges.

Same shit wherever you go. Regardless of the name (religious, cult-ish, secular) on top of the power structure, the self interested and malevolent will climb it & use it to their advantage.

@ErrolTheDragon

Yes definitely superstition. But I class religion type stuff like hand on bible in the same sphere.

Also why I would never proclaim there’s not a god. Not worth the risk is it really 🤣

@AlienatedChildGrown

Interesting post.

Lots of similarities between your experience and mine.

Parents didn't report. In most cases they didn't believe or want to believe their own children. Such was the power the church held over them, coupled by their own (wilful) ignorance.

Another interesting debate over the years is, does the CC turn priests into paedophiles. I don't believe that's true. I think that priesthood gave paedophiles a ready outlet and would be an attractive career with easy access to children. Be shocked if any were even religious.

Another interesting debate over the years is, does the CC turn priests into paedophiles. I don't believe that's true. I think that priesthood gave paedophiles a ready outlet and would be an attractive career with easy access to children. Be shocked if any were even religious.

@AhNowTed Yeah that is an interesting debate, when I was younger I used to think it was the celibacy that turned them into paedophiles, now I think it's the other way round

@AryaStarkWolf

And of course celibacy was only introduced to stop wives having a claim on church assets.

Fuck all to do with piety.

@AlienatedChildGrown

Totally agree, although this type of abuse is not unique to religion. Predators will abuse any system to their benefit.... religion, the boy scouts, politics, Children’s homes, boarding schools even fame and charity work. (think jimmy saville). Likewise, misogyny can be found in all strains from religion, to schools, to the police... These things are not unique to religion.

However, the question is whether God is needed for morality. not whether all religions are susceptible to abuse / predators / power plays. That's a given, I think

It's time for a better idea than God. And in any case that concept has lost its power to make the masses behave themselves.
How about a belief in humanity? Wouldn't that be nice...

The universe is the only great power we need to believe in. Unfortunately for humanity, it is indifferent to us!

The universal principle ("do unto others") was not invented by religions, although they like to lay claim to it.

I actually believe that teaching children the concept of "hell" should be considered a form of child abuse.

"The research suggests people don't do as they should but rather as they want. Human selfishness trumps the things that should happen."

See, I don't think this is quite right either. Yes motivation comes into it, but actually people do what is easy. A lot of people will do the right thing if you make it easy and not penalising for them to do it. One big problem is that society is set up so that helping others generally disadvantages individuals which discourages people from doing things like that. Conserving your own money/energy/time/resources looks like selfishness, but isn't it also sensible/what you need to do to survive?

"Should" is a really unhelpful concept in general IMO. Too loaded and everyone's ideas of morals are not the same.

And actually, I don't think children are feral without parental input either. In general, they seem to do quite well. Descent into bullying and "strongest wins" is IMO a reaction to punitive input by adults or learnt behaviour from the same.

I don't think fear of retribution by a god is any better as a technique than fear of punishment by authority, and we know that is only so effective. In general, I don't think discouraging/punishing misdemeanours is a good way to manage behaviour anyway. Enabling good behaviour, protection from the effects of wrongdoing, and helping people work through their problems is better. On a societal level, that means things like safety nets/welfare benefits, secure affordable housing, access to food/essentials, high quality education, accessible healthcare and mental healthcare, addiction support, high quality accessible social care. While some of these functions have been performed by religious organisations in the past, it's not the only possible source, governments for example could provide these things.

That is the way we should go as a society IMO, not relying on someone's idea/fear of a "god". People can have their beliefs in God or whatever but society should look after people.

So many interesting ideas! I've not made it to the end of the thread yet, so hope I'm not being too repetitive!

Universal values are anything but. What we class as obvious moral truths are actually often based on religion.

In some cultures it was morally correct to abandon infants with disabilities on the hillside to die of exposure, ditto the elderly non productive members of the clan, to protect the clans future.

There's a Chinese morality tale praising the virtue of the woman who breast fed her elderly MiL and allowed her infant to starve, during a famine. She preserved the wisdom of the elder, I suppose, but it was told as an example of obedience and respect for elders.

I lived in Singapore for a while and the people's heroes televised included a child about 10 who physically disciplined her little brother by lashing him with her belt. She was seen as a responsible big sister helping her gran bring up her brother.

There is nothing universal about western values. Some cultures would say it's better to prioritise family success than be honest, for example. Lie and cheat if it means your family gets ahead.

It's lazy and dangerous to make assumptions about the drive to be ethical.

Jesus's words were truly radical, at the time. They are only mainstream now because of the success of Christianity.

Maybe the original sun worshippers had it right.

We're here because our planet occupies that sweet spot of not too close and not too far away from the sun.

Orbit worshiping perhaps.

Or better still accident of nature acknowledging, but I'm struggling with a marketing brief 😀

@goherbie "However, the question is whether God is needed for morality. not whether all religions are susceptible to abuse / predators / power plays. That's a given, I think"

Yeah, it was a more nuanced point about a god or higher being capable of enforcing some sort of divine retribution, not organised religion that acts as a marketing firm for god(s) and is open to all sorts in the wrong hands.

@MarthaChuzzlewhit "It's time for a better idea than God. And in any case that concept has lost its power to make the masses behave themselves.
How about a belief in humanity? Wouldn't that be nice..."

That would be nice, but sadly unlikely. There's some magnetic about the 'God' concept - I think it's the not knowing. Fear plays a big part in using God to enforce morality - and fear is a big part of the 'not knowing' and 'unknowable'.

I don't believe in any god. I'm a nice person though I think! I don't drink, do drugs etc... I am raising children to be kind. I work with offenders and in therapy with people on the verge of suicide. I'm soon to be a foster carer. I try and be a decent human (though sometimes get a bit cross on this anonymous forum, sorry).

I don't think we need to be religious to be nice decent humans. I have found that when working with people in crisis, a larger than might be expected number of my clients have been raised in v religious homes. They tend to have big guilt complexes and a fear of being 'bad'. It's anecdotal of course, but I think religion can be helpful, but also for some quite unhelpful and lead to notable.mental.heqlth difficulties.

I don't think religion is the answer to creating decent and empathic individuals. Sometimes religion can be a cloak to disguise quite evil behaviour actually. I think the answer is good parenting

YANBU as far as I'm concerned, but it's a pity some pps aren't able to express dissent without sneering.

—dislikes Stalin
—loves to suggest exiling unbelievers

Ironic.

It’s not a binary choice between a religious society and a totalitarian one. Not that religion itself hasn’t had its own issues with dictatorial tendencies.

"Faith" is often just a way of abdicating responsibility for your own actions/ decisions onto an unprovable higher power.
It give people licence to make bad choices in their lives without feeling the need to own them because "God will provide" or "it is His will".
It's dangerous stuff and the root of most of humanity's problems over the years.
The sooner we grow out of this stuff the better.

"Modern Abrahamic religions were invented so the people in power could control, use and oppress society, especially the poor and uneducated, and women."

Christianity specifically subverts that! Jesus is born to an unmarried mother, welcomed first by shepherds, ministers directly to women... the early church managed to revert to patriarchy, but Jesus certainly didn't!

I could never understand how the evangelical so-called preachers in America got away with it. Fleecing their poor congregations out of millions.

And then I worked in American and it was explained to me.

The con is basically the richer I am, the closer I am to god (he bestows me with wealth). So give to my church and you have a chance of getting closer to god and therefore he will bestow some wealth to you too.

These poor sods actually revel in the preacher riding around in his limo as proof positive that he's right.

It's a fucking totally immoral but highly successful plan.

Do you think generations of faith-based communities may have influenced your moral compass?

No, HTH.