To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

Yes, prosperity gospel is shocking.

There are lots of abuses done in the name of religion, and abuses organised religions have failed to adequately challenge.

I find it interesting that people can be truly awful despite religion. So not only can an individual be awful, they can successfully corrupt an institution set up for 'good'.

I see some of the appalling things PPs have spoken about as evidence of the need for God, evidence of our ability to corrupt and be corrupted, and a failure of the churches rather than a result of them.

@NippyWoowoo ?

I think your moral values have been influenced by the teachings of religions. Perhaps not by the actions of religious institutions, but probably by the teachings themselves.

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

@TitoMojito "The higher power/deterrent in this situation is prosecution for perjury."

If only.

Isn't perjury challenging to prosecute? If so, it's sadly not the deterrent it should be. For example, the fallibility of human memory can be used as a defence.

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.”

If 'do you really want to risk a vengeful God coming after you?' works as an effective deterrent for perjury then it is what it is.

To all those who say 'oh but it wouldn't mean anything to me because I'm a staunch atheist', it would be interesting to see in practice. There's a lot of subconscious psychology that plays on people's guilt. The whole, 'but what if?'.

@Malie USA. There are more people on prison in the US than in the whole rest of the world. 1in 1000 of those people identify as athirst, it's 1 in 100 in the general US population.

Nordic countries are by far the safest (most equal and happiest) and are also some of the least religious people in the world.

Why?
Where do people think morality or a sense of social justice comes from?

Is it natural or supernatural?
The problem with these threads is they become a vehicle for passive-aggressive insults for those who have zero understanding of the fundamental concept of human value systems.

@picklemewalnuts thank you for the terminology. Prosperity gospel, who knew!

A 2006 Times poll found that 17 percent of American Christians identify explicitly with the movement, while 31 percent espouse the idea that “if you give your money to God God will bless you with more money.” A full 61 percent agree with the more general idea that “God wants people to be prosperous.”

Religion causes more problems for mankind, than anything else.

It’s not actually required to swear on the Bible. You can choose not to, and instead affirm that you will be honest.

I would say that not wanting to go to prison for perjury is a more effective motivator for honesty than swearing on a book that has no meaning to you. As for underlying psychology in regards to doubt , I imagine that would be likely to occur in those that have had religious belief/‘the fear of god’ instilled in them from childhood, as opposed to those of us who were never presented with religion as ‘truth’.

@Digita

Honestly, staunch atheists don't have a "what if" moment, whether in the dock or otherwise.

It might comfort you to think that everyone has some unconscious faith, or occasional "what is there is" moments, we don't.

'What if' moments are healthy for general self-evaluation from time to time. Keeps everyone on their toes and questioning.

God's existence is unknowable.

Yeah, atheists really don't have that 'what if' thing...
And I'd take a bet that a lot of the witnesses saying the words of the oath rather than affirming are apatheists who don't really either. It's just part of the 'ceremony'.

I read somewhere: "Whether you’re religious or not, or even if you just think about God from time to time, it’s almost impossible to avoid the question: Is God behind this pandemic that’s causing so much suffering in our world? One thing is for sure: you cannot believe in God without asking this question."

So, the 'what if' moments do happen and questioning is encouraged.

Horrific acts have been done both by religious people and in the name of religion.

Worshipping a god didn't stop paedophilia in the Catholic church, for example.

There are plenty of people that wouldn't do those things that have no belief in god.

Yabu.

Yeah, but inasmuch as it happens, it's sort of hedging your bets. Doesn't have much to do with morality as far as I can see - not that I'm saying people can't actually change for a variety of reasons, I believe they can.

And if belief in god keeps us moral out of fear, how do we reconcile that some believe in retributive god and some in benevolent god. And does benevolent god keep people in line as well as angry god?

@Digita

Please don't patronise me.

It may be hard for you to accept but billions of people do not believe in your god. Nor your blind faith.

For good reason.

I would absolutely defend your right to believe, but please, enough of the oh I'm sure you all have doubts. No, we don't.

Your god is as relevant to me a Santa Claus.

I swear my oath to the flying spaghetti monster. His existence is also unknowable.

@picklemewalnuts
@AhNowTed

Yes, and these guys seem to fall from grace with some regularity. I'm American and find it horrifying. These are also the religions that spread hatred and divisiveness against anyone who is different in some way (particularly lgbtq populations) Their political influence is immense, always for candidates that oppose separation of church and state and who will therefore allow them to keep charitable status so as to not tax their prosperity.

I know a lot of atheists whose moral codes are considerably better than that.

So, if there is a God then you wouldn't know anyway because you don't appraise or engage with the possibility in any meaningful way.

Tis folly to be wise when ignorance is bliss.

It is a shame to see all religions and faiths through the lens of their worst examples. Like assuming all Germans were Nazis, and so on.

Out of curiosity, who do you think "your God" is?

Also, you have assumed "blind faith". I'm asking questions - and that is not blind faith.

The research found that the retributive god was more effective in developing human civilisations than the idea of a benevolent god.

"Researchers found that the higher subjects rated their gods as moralistic and punitive, the more likely they were to give coins to strangers -- those who believed their gods punished bad behaviour gave on average two more coins to others than those who did not believe their gods were all-powerful and judgemental. Beliefs in gods that reward good behaviour made no difference on the results.

"The team suggest that belief in punishment promoted good behaviour -- that is, behaviour that promoted trust, co-operation and fairness.

"The threat of punishment from a god if that individual did not reach out to help strangers may have been one reason for the close bonds that developed between different communities around the world." - Benjamin Purzycki, University of British Columbia

www.wired.co.uk/article/fear-of-divine-retribution-shaped-civilisation

@Digita

I'm starting to get quite annoyed.

You continue to assert that we "haven't engaged with god in any meaningful way", and therefore haven't fully explored the possibility there is one.

Let me say this again.

I was born and raised in Ireland. Then a deeply religious country.

The country was run by the Catholic Church. Schools, health and state.

I have had plenty of time to engage with god in a meaningful way.

I am 57. Have had much heartache and tragedy. The kind of things that would have one wanting to believe.

I don't believe in your god.

I don't need your god to either give meaning to my life or give it purpose.

Your god story is ridiculously fantastical.

There is not a shred of proof.

Even priests call it blind faith.

YOU even said god is unknowable.

A book and a label doesn't make it any more knowable.

And it's unknowable if the unknowable god can indeed also be the flying spaghetti monster that you swear your oath upon.

😉

*your god = any of the 3000 available