To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

@Wallaw

"How is it any more of a generalisation or shit argument than the original premise: loss of god in society = bad, when I could easily give you specifics in which god in society has not resulted in good?"

It's not, I don't think either argument works. What's the old mumsnet saying, the plural of Anecdote is not data? Shit saying, but you get my point.

Oh here we go. The "if you don't like it leave" argument. Well done.

YABVVVU, have you missed how religion is historically the source of most discrimination, abuse and oppression? How religion has always been used as a way to oppress, discriminate and abuse people based on the belief that it was the right thing to do by god.

How many children taken away from their parents and forced-fed a specific religion? How many people were tortured or burned at the stake for failing to behave according to religion? How many women were stoned for not being pious enough? How many child-brides? How many faith based genocides? How many homophobes justify their hate and abuse on religion? How much of the abortion bad and restrictions on women bodies are based in religion?

if you think a belief in religion keep people in check then you are massively wrong, if anything it has historically proven to do the opposite and fuel hatred and discrimination.

Good people will be good people despite their religion and horrible people will remain horrible people despite the religion hence why sexual abuse and pedophilia is outrageously common in highly religious circles and why even people who do not commit the crime still condone it, because their faith doesn’t supersedes their perversion nor peer pressure.

One of the ones where belief in God is illegal or where the lack of belief in (a specified) God is illegal?

Either way, a well-reasoned intelligent response. Easier I guess than examining the fundamental incoherence in your arguments?

You do seem a good case in point, by the way, that belief in God does not, by itself, make one a kinder person.

Yep, as a young child I grew up in an area controlled by the taliban, funnily enough you were only okay and safe if you didn’t step out of line. My mother married a Sikh, they had to flee, not just my mother and father, but the wider family.

If they had remained they would have been killed because their marriage is forbidden under islam. That same area is now controlled by tehrik-i-taliban.

@Wallaw

"How is it any more of a generalisation or shit argument than the original premise: loss of god in society = bad, when I could easily give you specifics in which god in society has not resulted in good?"

Indeed. Can't think of one where it has. None.

If you only act in amoral way because you are afraid of being punished barbarically in an imaginary afterlife, you are intrinsically an immoral person, secular morality is far superior to religious morality.

The most religious countries generally have the highest crime rates.

Is the same as our dear old Cambridge spies who spied for the Soviets during the Cold War. When they actually were forced to live in dear old mother Russia they found it wasn’t quite the Utopia it had seemed from the U.K.

Such as…?

As far as sales pitches go, ‘find Jesus or fuck off to North Korea’ needs work.

Right, but I'm not arguing that belief of God in society is bad.

I'm arguing that God in society doesn't necessarily mean good, which, for the sake of this discussion, I'm equating with the original premise (that the loss of God in society is bad). I think there's plenty of evidence to support that case.

I think your answer just shows the thought you put into your research

@Linning

"if you think a belief in religion keep people in check then you are massively wrong, if anything it has historically proven to do the opposite and fuel hatred and discrimination."

Growing up in a deeply religious country I can attest to this absolutely.

The horrific damage done to generations, and still be covered up to this day.

You're embarrassing yourself now 🤦‍♀️

Is this how your religion encourages its followers to behave?

Ever been to Afghanistan, Venezeula or Syria?!

You're not wrong. Don't "God" and Kim Jong Un both demand total obedience? So "move to North Korea if you don't believe" is just swapping one dictator for another.

@Malie

AhNowTed
Oh here we go. The "if you don't like it leave" argument. Well done.

"Is the same as our dear old Cambridge spies who spied for the Soviets during the Cold War. When they actually were forced to live in dear old mother Russia they found it wasn’t quite the Utopia it had seemed from the U.K."

It's not the same though.

You seem to suggest that if I don't like something I should leave. I don't agree with this particular government, so should I leave?

Should Tories leave when Labour is in power.

Should Muslims leave a Christian country.

I'm at a loss as to your actual argument.

Well said! Sadly, fear of religious retribution stopped a lot of young boys from feeling they could speak up, though.

OP there are so many options out the people/you. Biocentrism, a general love of science and how phenomenal it is, a love of nature as divine, so many other things. It doesn't need to be a narrow construct of 'God' versus a fear that society will fall apart without it.

I’m a loss to your argument. The belief in God is fundamental to mankind. In societies with belief in God is repressed people still believe and in fact the church grows. You just seem to live in a world of fantasy. It’s very enough to have a worldview but to blame all the problems on the world on religion alone is just to hide your head in the sand without any regard for history whatsoever. Like a Marxist saying all the problems in the world are caused by capitalism. Of course religion has caused problems but anything can cause problems in the wrong hands. Science can cause problems in the wrong hands but we don’t stop doing science. To make sweeping statements he’s just to prove a lack of thought in the area.

The Czech Republic is not an atheist state to my knowledge.

Except I didnt state it was but it's recognized as the least religious state in the world ahead of your darling north Korea.

@Malie

"The belief in God is fundamental to mankind."

That's your OPINION and that's all it is.

Based on BLIND FAITH. Nothing more.

Willing to be proved wrong but where's all these lovely religious countries where there's no down-side?

Wouldn't that suggest the 'god(s)' were invented to enforce morality?

Yes, but they were invented by people. And they tend to enforce whatever the people in charge of the religion decide constitutes morality. This is not necessarily a good thing.

Imperfect though systems of government are, I'd rather depend on laws put in place by elected representatives to make people behave themselves than rules decided by whatever religious group happens to be dominant. If any particular branch of any particular religion can even be described as sufficiently dominant to represent much of the populus at a time when religion is massively on the wane.

I'm a staunch atheist. I'm not going to argue that there aren't any positive social aspects of having a shared, organised religion. Of course there are some. But to say you can't have a moral compass without religion is ridiculous. About as ridiculous as suggesting that having a religion means that all people of that religion have the same moral compass, or that even the ones who do have the same moral compass actually abide by it!

Which God are you talking about that’s apparently fundamental to humankind?? One in particular or any of them?

Buddhism seems to get a lot of better press than other religions/practices. I was in a number of Buddhist monasteries and they had very, very young children who were sent there by their families to live with stranger adult men. At 6 in the morning extremely young children were nodding off during puja while they were starting off their monk training. I do not believe that in time they won’t have the same abuse issues that other religions have experienced. The practice of sending children off to live in monasteries is not a healthy practice no matter what the religion is. Children should live with their parents if at all possible.