Re children in restaurant

[Arbesque]

Four of us booked a table in an expensive restaurant last night for 7.30.
About 10 minutes after we'd sat down a couple came in pushing a buggy and with 2 other children in tow. They were seated at the table beside us.
One child kept bashing his spoon off the table, another kept crawling along the wide windowsill so that he was right behind my head, and the baby was kept amused by the father playing peek a boo while she screamed excitedly. This went on and on.

We asked to be moved to another table. There were none available.Then the baby started crying loudly and the toddler got tired and cranky and joined the wailing.

We left without dessert and complained on the way out. They knocked the price of a bottle of wine off our bill.

AIBU to think expensive restaurants, charging a fortune, should have a policy for dealing with situations like this?

We paid a lot of money for a meal we couldn't enjoy.

Exactly!

I don't agree that this behaviour is normal in Mediterranean countries and we should just accept family time in restaurants.

I have never been in restaurants in Spain, Italy or Greece and seen children misbehaving enough to disturb other tables. I've seen plenty of whole families of all ages sitting round tables together but never loud bad behaviour. If you can't get your children to sit still-ish and not disturb other tables stick to fast food. Don't try and take them when they are over tired or if they haven't learnt to sit at the table at home and eat nicely as a family.

Benares in Mayfair allowed children only for lunch times. No children in the evening.
They were absolutely brilliant with our two who were only 3 yrs old at the time.

Exactly.

DH and I ate at The Kitchin a while ago (Michelin starred in Edinburgh). It was a treat for us and it was lovely. Seated at 8pm.

There was a table across from us with three children plus parents. At a guess I'd say they were maybe 4, 6 and 8. British (I could hear them, they had southern English accents).

They were impeccably behaved. They chatted nicely amongst themselves. Mum gave the younger two colouring books whilst they waited for their food, you didn't hear any more from them than you did anyone else in the restaurant and far less from them than the obnoxious chap at another table who was loudly pontificating about the different wines. The little one knocked his drink on the floor and Dad was out of his seat mopping it up and apologising to the staff for the mess and (the next table for the disturbance) before they could get there with a cloth and they're super speedy attentive there! It was a long dinner too, set menu with lots of little courses.

I'd have been bloody furious if we'd gone somewhere lovely like that, arranged childcare and spent a bloody fortune on an evening out only for it to be ruined by ineffective parenting. Because it's not ruined by 'horrible' or 'feral' children, it's ruined by shit parents who are too lazy and selfish to consider those around them.

Clearly these children have been raised to know how to behave in a nice restaurant and the parents were 'on it' and considerate. They looked like they all had a lovely evening together.

No way would I take mine (6 and 4) somewhere like that at the moment at that time of the evening. Lunch, possibly. They'd be tired and whiny later and although they do behave nicely when we eat out (because I've done it since birth, prepare quiet things to keep them entertained like colouring etc and don't tolerate bad manners/poor behaviour especially not when it affects other people in public) we stick to more family friendly places when we're with the children. I don't mean places like McDonalds or places where they're free to run riot - what sort of an example is that? - but chain places where it doesn't ruin someone else's entire evening if one kicks off and needs to be taken out.

Oh and I should say too, one of mine is autistic with with additional needs. I absolutely realise that not all children with additional needs are capable of sitting nicely at a table, or being quiet etc etc it's doubly hard for parents with children who need extra help and support. We are lucky (because it is pure luck, not anything that can be taught) that my child is capable of having that understanding. But if I can teach her, and her younger sibling to behave herself appropriately and have the insight to realise myself that there are some places that it's just not considerate for me to take them if they're not likely to behave on that occasion then I don't see why other people can't.

If you want to be pedantic about it, I'm able to take my child to any restaurant that isn't designated child free and asking me to leave if she were to make noises (including banging the table, can be a stim) or have a meltdown is tantamount to disability discrimination. Disability is a protected characteristic in law and stimming/making noises/having meltdowns happens as a direct result of her disability. I'm basically entitled to take her somewhere nice like La Gavroche for example as they allow children and she could make loud noises, leave her seat, use an aid that makes a noise (tablet), bang the table repeatedly, hum loudly, flap about, even have a meltdown and it'd be tough shit. I don't though, because I'm not a selfish, inconsiderate dick.

For this reason also I do not judge parents who let their children play on tablets when eating out as long as they're quiet in volume or the child is wearing headphones (some children can't tolerate them, others love them). We don't do that because we don't need to, but I totally understand why others do (we do take ear defenders in case they're needed). For some parents that's the lifeline that means they get half an hour to eat a meal that for once they haven't cooked and their child is settled and happy (and not disturbing anyone else!). Again, in a fine dining place? I personally wouldn't have an issue if it wasn't disturbing people but I wouldn't like to. In a Zizzi's? Crack on. I hate it when I hear people talking about children being on tablets in a derogatory way - for many they're essential and you can't tell by looking who needs help and who doesn't. Children even have use of them in EHCPs! No, in years gone by children didn't have them but in years gone by children with additional needs or disabilities were also locked away so I'd much rather have it like it is now!

Restaurants who don't allow children often get a right bashing on social media. Presumably from the type of parents who are the cause of the ban in the first place.

when ds had a friend who was a church goer, and invited him to go too, the dc went out during the service, to a special children's room.
so no church quietness required in that room,
that was 20 years ago

Lol at Arlo. It's always Martha/Mabel and Arlo with 'those' parents here.

Maybe the answer when seated near a family with noisy unruly children is to have some penis related paraphernalia in your bag. Whip it out and start an impromptu 'hen' party and watch how the parents deal with the inevitable questions.

'Mummee, mummee, why hath that lady got a willy on her head? Mummy, mummee, why? why? why?'

I am with you on this OP. How outrageous that these parents allowed your meals to be ruined. And that the restaurant didn't do anything either.
I am familiar with restaurants in the Med where children dine out (though usually lunch rather than dinner). Yes they do, but the children are invariably well behaved. It is something to do with children being accepted I think, so they do not play up and inconvenience other people. Here, it is as though the parents have anxiety about their kid's behaviour, and guess what? they play up. At the same time the parents are in some form of denial and don't try and help other diners - Arlo's parents being a prime example.

What bullshit? That’s the Uk is less kid friendly than other cultures? Erm ok then . Bizarre. Hope you’re ok

YANBU OP.

It was not the DC being there that you objected to - it was their behaviour. When DS was young we wouldn't have dreamed of taking him to a high end restaurant for dinner - that's why babysitters exist.

Instead we would go to family friendly restaurants such as Pizza Express and even then one of us - usually me - would take him out for a walk if he got upset. The only time I let DS and his friends be a bit more boisterous than appropriate was when they were about 5 and Pizza Hut had forgotten to put our order in so we had to wait for an hour.

It bemuses me how some DPs are so insensitive to other diners.

I remember when I was pregnant we were having Sunday lunch with my DPs in a fairly upmarket pub. A table sat with their toddler screaming so loudly for so long that we - and many other tables - asked to be moved to another section. When I told people this they were like "oh wait until you have your own" chuckle chuckle, but no if DS had behaved like that we'd have asked for our food to be boxed up and waited in the car. It's basic manners.

If we were abroad and had to eat later than ideal for DS we'd either pick cafe style restaurants or once he reached the age where it worked, well then yes we plonked him in front of a silent iPad with angry birds once he'd finished his dinner.

On another occasion when DS was young, I was out for a rare child free night with some work friends. A couple arrived- about 7.30 - with a young baby who proceeded to fuss and fret for about an hour until it escalated to full blown crying. The man ignored it whilst the poor DM ended up outside on the street for an hour. It seemed a very unenjoyable experience for all, apart from the DF.

im with you @Arbesque , it would have spoilt it for me
the parents need to learn some manners and consider other people

Children are welcomed as part of society and expected to integrate and behave, they’re not treated like separate entities that can just be left to it like wild animals. If children are taught how to behave in relation to the environment they’re in, they’re welcomed. If they are left to behave as they want to, you end up with a society that becomes increasingly hostile to children being in public spaces. It’s all interconnected.

Top post, @whumpthereitis

Agree.

Children have to earn privileges in society; they aren't automatic.

Absolutely. The people who complain bitterly about children not being welcomed everywhere with open arms are the perpetrators of the situation.
They allow their children to run amok, create a racket, disturb and annoy everyone and then blame the victims of their bad parenting for taking issue and start labelling them child haters and miseries, and dictate they should just go elsewhere if they're so intolerant. The lack of awareness is astonishing.

I am with you on this OP. How outrageous that these parents allowed your meals to be ruined. And that the restaurant didn't do anything either.

Well the restaurant are out of pocket here because they gave away a bottle of wine to OP to compensate for someone else's behaviour.
Confronting people like this usually leads to an escalation in the disturbance as they argue and cause a scene when asked to keep their children from disturbing other people, and further so if asked to leave - and then people are going to be even more unhappy and want more compensation for the disturbance. And they argue and carry on because they don't like being confronted by people who are there to serve them, most people don't like being asked to do even reasonable things by service workers because of the attitude they're there to serve and not in the least bit respected. This type of situation is a symptom of that attitude.

The issue here is the parents, not the restaurant or it's staff or OP.

I've always let my Dd take an iPad with headphones if we are going somewhere 'naice'

She's usually well behaved without one but it's there to guarantee quiet for other people

I know some people with say I shouldn't but it guarantees quiet for us.

I was once in a high end bar in Amsterdam enjoying a bottle of champagne celebrating with my dh and a family came in and placed their children unsupervised in the table next to us with tablets ( without headphones), and walked off to the other side of the bar - telling their dc ‘don’t bother us - we want some grown up time’. 😵
so did we- that’s why we came out without ours.

I’m totally with you op. The kind of people who let their kids do this in restaurants are selfish inconsiderate cunts. If you want your child to learn ‘how to behave’ in adult restaurants then teach them and expect good behaviour, no less. Don’t rock up and treat it like soft play.

I'm surprised the restaurant allowed such young kids. Maybe the parents didn't check - I always would when I'm in the U.K., especially if it's AA rosette or Michelin.

Re the different culture in Spain, I think 1) many restaurants have an outdoor terrace, which always seems less formal/quiet and the noise isn't magnified by being in an enclosed space

And 2) Spanish restaurants are noisier in general! Lots of loud conversations, laughter, no discreet murmuring here. So I don't think the kids stand out so much

Much prefer Spain as a parent of young kids!

I agree. Everyone should be aware of the people around them in a public space and modify their behaviour. Most of us whisper in a Church out of respect for people praying, keep our voices to a reasonable level in restaurants because we're not in our own dining room/kitchen, put our phones on silent and away in our bags in cinemas so other people can enjoy the film. It's not rocket science, just ordinary decent behaviour.

What bullshit? That’s the Uk is less kid friendly than other cultures? Erm ok then . Bizarre. Hope you’re ok

You think you're being witty and reasonable but you are having about 70 different conversations. I was talking about your (frankly unbelieveable) position that you don't think there's a difference between a family wedding and a fine dining establishment, and now this.
Stop being ridiculous. What the UK doesn't like is badly behaved children. Unfortunately there are so many of them. It is because of people like you who pretend it's fine.
Get another hobby.

I would not expect children at high end restaurants charging say £75 plus per head after 7:30 unless they were in private dining for an event. It’s too much money and it’s not fair that children undermine an adult experience. I see it as the same as the ballet or opera. We have taken our DC into private dining but only well away from other diners.

Just to answer a question asked way up thread before I got distracted by a heckler, this restaurant doesn't do a children's menu or offer crayons etc. It's clearly not geared towards children.
There were 2 very quiet children, aged about 9, at another table and one of them seemed to be eating the prawn dish from the main menu. I couldn't see what the other one was having. But the cheapest main was 30 euro so it's a very expensive place to bring a child.

Don't get me started on the ballet. I rarely go because it's expensive but the last few times, without fail, there have been kids standing up on their seats, turning and staring at audience members behind them, shouting, crying, even on one occasion getting up and doing their own version of the dance in the aisles where their flailing could still be seen. I'm not talking about the Nutcracker on Xmas Eve afternoon (though honestly even then I feel like the performance is for everyone, not put on just for little Bella), I'm talking about evening shows. It's infuriating that ballet is for some reason seen as little more than something that little girls enjoy.