To refer myself to SS?

[LifeSucksBigTime]

I am honestly at breaking point with my 12 year old. I have raised another child who is now an adult, and is the sweetest, kindest girl you could meet. My youngest is the polar opposite, and honestly she makes my life a misery.

This could be a very long thread if I went into the whole, complicated story. But the bottom line is that I’m not coping anymore, mentally. She’s getting worse and worse with age (and she’s never been easy, from the word go).

I really need some help. I don’t know who to talk to, whether I should call SS, or the GP, or her school? I do love her but she doesn’t make it easy, she really is a spectacularly unpleasant individual.

Hi @LifeSucksBigTime sorry to read this and to hear how very very hard things are.

Have you heard about PDA, which is a specific profile on the autism spectrum?

Some of the things you mentioned about your DD and compliance / anger / refusal ... and just the sheer awfulness you are feeling... rang bells for me. I have two autistic children and one is PDA. It is incredibly hard.

More info here:

www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-pda-menu/

I’m really overwhelmed by all of the support on here, thanks so much. There have been some great suggestions.

Will definitely contact SENDIAS and try to get the ball rolling with an EHCP. I’ve been down that road before with my eldest who also has ASD and had to leave school in year 9, I ended up getting her an EHCP myself whilst I was home schooling. To add to the complications there, the school head of SEN just left, so whoever is replacing him won’t have any idea about my dd.

It is interesting, the whole nature/nature thing. DD hasn’t seen her father since she was 19 months, and not much before then, but god is she similar to him in a lot of ways. The way she was smirking at me last night with her eyes boring into me (she has his eyes), it’s a bit triggering considering the abuse I went through. She’s also very manipulative like he was, she is perfectly capable of being nice but it’s when she wants something, and when she doesn’t get her way she’ll flip.

@BoxedOut yes I think she fits the PDA profile very well.

@LifeSucksBigTime Did you know about PDA before you looked at the link or is this the first time it's been suggested to you?

Does her ASC diagnosis have any specific mention of it? (NHS teams tend to refer to it as "ASC with a demand avoidant profile".

Just asking because having her formally assessed and, if applicable, diagnosed, could help you a lot in the years to come to access the specific support she may need in education.

The thing is, if she is PDA, then the good news is there is a LOT you / others can do to support her, and things can get less pressurised - they truly can - once you start using a specific PDA approach. I've witnessed it firsthand in my own DC.

s sounds so much like my daughter who has just been diagnosed with ASD with a PDA profile.

I agree - it's hard to see the control, manipulation and poor behaviour as part of her diagnosis and to do with anxiety but it might help.

School really need to stop treating her as a naughty child and use techniques for an anxious one - if you have good communication with them the PDA society have a great workshop for strategies for schools (often quite different as those for ASD).

Again agree with trying to get an EHCP (we're going through that now). If school is too much (and her behaviour suggests it is) can they send her to alternative provision a couple of times a week which would potentially give her a smaller group and more bespoke education with people used to student who are struggling in a school environment

My situation is so close to yours - older child now adult, lovely (probably ASD and had her issues). This one always been difficult but around these teenage years (she's 13) everything has escalated - apparently common for girls with ASD).

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation yes I have always mentioned him once in a while to her, the brilliant CAFCASS SW I had when I was in court suggested that I drip feed the story to her in an age appropriate way, which I have done as she’s got older. When she got to the age where she wanted a bit of independence to hang out with her friends I had to have quite a serious chat with her about him because the truth is she will always be at risk from him, and she needs to know that he is dangerous. Hard to tread that thin line between keeping her safe and not scaring the crap out of her, but I did my best. She has no actual conscious memory of him.

@BoxedOut I did know about it before, but assumed that now she has a diagnosis of ASD that was that, I thought it was just a blanket generic diagnosis. She was diagnosed when she was 9 I think. Do you mean I could go back and ask for her to be assessed for PDA specifically?

@ninja I agree that she’d be better off in a smaller environment. My eldest ended up going to a specialist autism school after I got her EHCP and she was so much happier (she had crippling social anxiety rather than the sort of behaviour I see with dd2). That’s why I emailed the head of SEN to ask about it, I can see where this is going and I’d rather be proactive about having the EHCP in place rather than her spending 2 years out of school when the wheels come off completely as happened with DD1.

I think it depends on which doors (if any) you would need a PDA diagnosis to unlock. Sorry that's not a straightforward answer.

I think your best bet would be to start reading about PDA and try the strategies with her for a few weeks. Then review.

There is loads of good stuff on the PDA Society website, great place to start. They also have a free helpline which I would massively recommend, it's staffed by volunteers who have all parented PDA children and the relief of speaking to people who really understand is immense. I also got lots of specific advice about strategies.

Another good place to start is this book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Pathological-Avoidance-Syndrome-Children/dp/1849050740/ref=ascdff_1849050740/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310867999190&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12193353844478630869&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006886&hvtargid=pla-516358700634&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

And, if school need more understanding and strategies then this one for them:

www.amazon.co.uk/Teachers-Introduction-Pathological-Demand-Avoidance/dp/1787754871

Lastly, there is a FB group called Lens Change, Collaborative Problem Solving (CPS) for PDA children. It's a support group for parents wanting to use the CPS approach from Ross Greene's book The Explosive Child. It's a really good approach and you can sit down and do lots of reflecting and working out what difficulties are going to be prioritised, so if just reading around on your own is t your cup of tea then maybe the CPS approach would suit.

The school were keen not to permanently exclude DD as they could see she wasn't coping, but also weren't happy her coming to school so are paying for full time alternative provision from September until an EHCP (hopefully) comes through.

She's really difficult, won't hear the word 'no' only interested in being like the 'perfect' teenage girl (all make up and fake tan). But also very vulnerable and easily led (got herself into some very dangerous situations) and I really work for her future.

As with your dd she is no fun to be around.

I agree the explosive child book should be good (but my daughter is difficult and her dad won't stick to consistent behaviour).

Good luck -

I was also recommended to read the books by Libby Scott who is a teenager with PDA and they showed me another side of some of my daughter's behaviour

I also have a DD with these diagnoses and found the Ross Greene book very helpful, also Jeffrey Bernstein's 10 Days to.a Less Defiant Child.

Don't give up the horse.

After various therapies (NVR might be helpful for you - it was for us) DD (now 9) is much better regulated (cycling is her "horse") and things are much better. She masks at school though -- but as you have obvious behaviours at school too that will help with the ECHP.

It is nonsense to say she doesn't meet the threshold!

Some very good advice on this thread as well as some utter nonsense. Please don't listen to people trying to diagnose your DD as a psychopath. No one can do that third hand via internet. And children under 18 can't receive a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder anyway.

It sounds as though you have both been through so much. As much as your DD needs help (and she certainly does, she is crying out for help in the only way she knows how), I think you also need help and support. PPs have mentioned some possible avenues. I'd also like to point you in the direction of an approach called Beyond Consequences Logic and Control (BCLC) that has been life changing for many families. It is all about understanding the fear that underlies trauma and building strong relationships. In addition to resources like books, DVDs, and online support groups, I believe they also offer phone consultations. (I'm not at all affiliated with this organisation, I just know many people who have benefited from it.) This approach and other types of therapeutic parenting can be so helpful because they look beyond the typical reward/punishment model (which is essentially useless for a child with deep trauma in her early years) and place the emphasis on attachment and relationship.

This is absolute nonsense.

Hello OP, just coming back to info-dump a few more links in case any are helpful for you right now. Ignore if not :-)

If by some chance you're within commuting distance of Limpsfield Grange - school website is here: limpsfieldgrange.co.uk

Rewards - would recommend you stay completely away from these, they can exacerbate difficulties for PDA children.

Clinical psychologist - DM me if you can afford to pay for private sessions for this, I can give you the name of someone who really knows demand avoidance.

(Btw for the record I think it's horrendous that someone in this situation should have to pay for private help, I'm just aware of the reality of how public services are and if you feel you're at breaking point then whatever it takes to get support.)

Spectrum Space - spectrumspace.co.uk
Clare Truman is a specialist teacher in PDA (she wrote the book for teachers I linked to up thread). She is amazing. If your DD ended up out of school, some LAs will make provision through Spectrum Space.

Has she ever had play therapy? We went private and it was £60 a week.

Thank you, unfortunately I can’t afford to pay for any private therapy, with the cost of living rocketing and paying for a horse as a single parent I’m on the bones of my arse.

I have a rare night out tonight so won’t be back to the thread for a while, but I will take some time when I can to properly read through links and suggestions people have given.

Thanks again to everyone for the support so far, it’s really appreciated.

This is very hard. She (and you) are living with severe trauma. This is key. She's Autistic, possibly PDA and likely ADHD. This all brings its own trauma and difficulties especially when it's undiagnosed. Plus she's going through adolescence. You need all the support you can get. Absolutely yes to parenting courses and groups but my advice would be only if they understand and take trauma and autism etc into account. My view is that rewards and punishments will not work and make your relationship worse. Not for everyone, but I found NVR (Non Violent Resistance) parenting course run by CAMHS very helpful. Press for an ADHD assessment as soon as possible. The hobby sounds helpful. Certainly don't use it as a punishment. It is very hard to get support from CAMHS but you should certainly try. Early Help and Social Services worth a go but my experience of Early Help was that they knew absolutely nothing about Autism or Mental Health. (And were incompetent but hopefully your area will be better.) If you go to Social Services I would go straight to the Disabled Children's Team. The books and FB pages mentioned, Explosive Child, Therapeutic Parenting, PDA FB page etc may all be useful. Remember your daughter is NOT her father. Look after yourself as much as you can. I wish you both all the very best.

Haven't read all of the replies as my ASD son kept the whole house up until 3am last night! Research PDA, my son has a PDA profile is rude, obnoxious, thinks the world revolves around him, won't do anything unless there's something in for him but sometimes his anxiety even prevents him from doing the things he wants to do. It's a minefield.

OP, why have you let this go on for so long?! Your poor daughter AND you.

She's let it go on a long time because every day you think things will improve and you don't want to face the reality that improvements will mean filling in a thousand forms and parting with £££. Plus of course you blame yourself as a parent and (if you're lucky) so do other people in your life...

Anyway, I came back to second the suggestion of NVR. It is was the cheapest thing we did of the £5k we spent on assessment and therapies yet the most useful. We used Jack at New Leaf NVR although he now has a waiting list.

I really think you and your daughter need external help. Contact SS and tell them you cannot cope anymore. Unfortunately there is also an hereditary element to psychopathy and if her father was assessed has having that disorder she could have inherited some of the traits. She would be better off having some regular access to a therapist and a proper diagnosis.

I think there are a lot of possibilities that could be going on for her - attachment disorder due to the kidnapping trauma, PDA due to the autism, an inherited personality disorder from her father - narcissistic, sociopathic, psychopathic....On the other hand it could 'just' be ASD/ADHD and being a teenager and really struggling with it all.

I really think she needs some further serious assessment though, but I can't imagine it's easy to get unfortunately. I agree with not taking the horse away, she desperately needs something positive in her life to help keep her on the straight and narrow - in face I'd go the other way and try and get her more and more involved in the horse riding world.

Schools can quite often brush your concerns off if the pain is mostly being felt at home - I'd say the wheels have fallen off, despite the fact she's attending school.
Go to the GP etc and re engage professionals.

I'd ring fence the horse and stop any threats relating to that, some things should just be off the table.

If the phone works for discipline on line crossing, use that.

Mine have both been incredibly vile to me when just generally in a not supportive enough school environment.

@BoxedOut - I'd be really interested in your clinical psychologist recommendation