To wonder why so many women put up with this shit

[Stylishkidintheriot]

www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/15/how-to-achieve-an-equal-split-of-household-chores-kate-mangino#comment-158160830

I don’t get it: I really don’t. Not in this day and age.

if a man isn’t pulling his weight, why the fuck would you stay in a relationship or have children with him?

Yes, it's societal, but why does that mean that you can't try to address it within your own relationship?

The language you use in this post is full of the internalised misogyny we all feel - if you ask your husband to pull his weight you're a "nag".

As a pp said, he does care about stuff like dirt and visitors, he just knows that by pretending he doesn't you'll do it. Whether that's a fully conscious thing for him or not, the result is the same. If they didn't care, they wouldn't try to replace the female skivvies in their lives when they separate. They'd just live in the squalor they profess to be fine with.

Why not have this same conversation with your husband that we're having here? I realised that's what I needed to do. My husband and I discussed the mental load, and the reasons I felt the pressure of expectation that I am responsible for domestic admin. When he was being a bit rubbish at doing the laundry, I showed him how to do it properly and explained that I didn't want him to become One of Those Men, because I feared I would lose respect for him.

He understands, and he doesn't want to be One of Those Men either.

For my part, I try to work on identifying when the pressures I feel are legitimate, and when they're just patriarchal bullshit that I can ignore and relax about.

We need to start having these conversations properly, and openly, with all the men and women in our lives.

If we all continue to silo ourselves, women complaining about their lazy men, and men complaining about their nagging wives (or congratulating themselves for tricking their wives into being skivvies by pretending to be mentally subnormal), nothing will change.

There is alot of luck involved though.

Many, many men change completely once they’ve got children, or at least let their true selves show for the first time.

Speaking for myself
I was young when the ex and I got together
I had no life experience - things I wouldn’t put up with now happened a lot
I didn’t know any different
he was from a family where his mum did everything so his expectation was that I’d do the same
it didn’t matter when we were younger and just having fun but when the kids arrived he was jealous because the attention wasn’t on him and during my maternity leave he refused to do anything round the house as I was ‘off’ and ‘could laze about all day doing nothing’ It was just easier to do the housework myself rather than have a big row about it all the time after all someone’s got to hoover/ put the washing on/ clean and tidy

I divorced him in the end for many reasons but he was ( still is) a massive man child

Stylishkidintheriot ha he is 22 and 6ft 2 tall but thank you so much.

And it's not only housework where men are taking the piss. Nowadays it seems everybody has head the part about equality where women work and pay their way. But the part where men also contribute to housework and children has kind of gone missing. There have been several threads just in the past couple of days where women pay 50% or more even when they earn less due to childcare, and still do everything at home.

How on earth can anyone think this is fair?

For example: www.mumsnet.com/talk/parenting/4614486-how-involved-should-a-husband-be-with-newborn?page=1
or
www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4612892-is-he-petty-or-do-i-take-the-p?page=1

The problem as lots of posters have pointed out is that these things aren't always obvious before children and after children it's harder to leave. It's easy to say go on strike/stop doing things but when it's the children who will suffer not just the lazy partner its difficult to do. It's easy to say ltb but hard to face not seeing your children everyday - especially if you don't trust the lazy partner to look after them properly. The 'problem' is that most women put their children before themselves.

Tbh I found on threads in here that lots of couples don't communicate. If your oartner was a good partner for 7 years for exapmple, then there is a very good chance that communication would solve half the issues... Of course with some exceptions

Do some women believe they kind of ...owe the man something because the man agreed to live with them and have children? Because honestly I can't otherwise see how this discussion will go:
-- so, dear husband, how will we organise childcare?
-- Well dear wife, would make sense if you go part time, so you can do all the wraparound care and forget about any promotions, you need to be available for all sick days and holidays. Plus do all the housework as I'm busy and important and need to relax. Yes you will earn 20% of my salary but I will still expect you to pay 50%, plus everything for children and household. I'll keep my cash.
--ok then..

Women aren't idiots though? 9 out of 10 single parent families are headed by a woman. £2bn in unpaid child support. If you push back too hard from a position of less power, unpleasant things can happen.

Well all I can say is, you have very poor understanding of what some women live with, and not by choice.

H and I met as students, totally carefree, and were together for 12 years BC. He wasn't a great support when our 1st came along, but by then I was mid 30s and wanted more children, so time was not on my side. Plus my career had stalled because I had to prioritise dropping off and picking up the kids. He always managed to work too far away. So, I had two more, no regrets ever on that score. He did do some things, on his own terms, for instance, I've never done his washing or ironing, and I seldom cook for him any more.

He threatened to leave me many times over the years, but never did. The last threat was he was going when youngest was 18, but youngest is nearly 19 and he's still here.

My issue is twofold. Despite him being a total prick, we've been together 37 years and we have massive shared history. He doesn't have anyone else who gives a shit about him. He's got worse and worse over the years - he doesn't do dishes, or dust or hoover - has never cleaned windows or toilets/bathrooms - he grudgingly mows the lawn (when it suits him) and it takes ages nagging to get the smallest DIY project done. I know I deserve so much better.

However, we live in a 4 bed house in a nice area. Staying together meant that we could afford music lessons, languages exchanges, swimming lessons, nice holidays - all of which I wanted my children to have. If we were to split now, much as I am tempted, he would get half the house. I have put my heart and soul into this house. Our kids have left home and drifted back for one reason or another, so I need to still have a home that they can return to. They are all home right now.

Half the house wouldn't enable me to buy somewhere big enough to accommodate 4 of us, if it came to it.

I have a lot of empathy with women who are similarly trapped!

That was an example of "by choice" not "not by a choice".

I wanted more kids and better financial security so i chose to stay and have more kids...

Well yes that's also an answer to OP's question - I put up with it because I prefer to live in a bigger house and that kids have a higher standard of living.

One of the reasons I would never be a SAHP or otherwise give up on my career ambitions. If DH turns out to be a dick, I can maintain the lifestyle DCs are accustomed to with just my income.

I want to leave but I don't want my young son to end up trapped in a 50/50 custody arrangement being shuttled between two homes and feeling like a nomad. Cost of living and expensive nursery fees would make it tricky for me to manage as a single mum but I could manage it - just. I'm not scared of being single. Not one bit. It's just the logistics of extracting myself

@Canthave2manycats

Your post makes me so sad. Sad that ego and obstinacy can be such absolute barriers to happiness, even when people clearly know things could be better.

He's been threatening to leave, which means he's unhappy. Pretty sure it's not entirely without good reason.

OTOH you've also told us how unhappy you are and how you're trapped. But really the issues are at their core so minor. Like if one of you would compromise on this and the other on that, your life would be so much better.

I don't mean to sound patronising, but look, you've been together for almost 4 decades. At this point you know each others foibles, good and weak points, and you know what makes the other tic.

How about rather than continuing on this path of misery for another 30+ years, you sit down and talk. Take a few days off together for a nice holiday, somewhere relaxing but without too many distractions. And just talk. Rekindle your love and feelings for one another. Focus on the positives that each of you bring. Go through some of the things that you each do that annoy the other, but that will never change, and make the decision to ignore them.

So he's not perfect. Guess what, neither are you. But nobody is. Are you really saying that there is no way you could have a loving relationship with him unless he does xyz? And won't he have that with you unless you do xyz?

You've invested most of your life in this, surely the best way forward is to make it work. Not survive or float, but swim.

Slick, have you ever found yourself in a position similar to Cats'? I've had to read your post twice to see whether I could detect sarcasm or whether to take your fabulous optimism at face value.
My experience tells me that in general, women in relationships like the one Cats describes didn't just arrive at that point 30 years down the line without having really tried and hoped, compromised and made allowances, coaxed and cajoled, encouraged and praised, negotiated and attempted to set clear expectations, blamed themselves and blamed their spouses, felt desperately lonely, ashamed of their involuntary 'surrendered' status and seethingly resentful and taken for fools. So, a huge amount of emotional, relational labour in addition to the extra labour-labour they're also doing.
A person who is prepared to let their spouse shoulder the greatest part of the grunt work of householding isn't doing so unwittingly; they know what they're getting away with and the issues it is causing in their relationship, yet they choose to keep shirking. That's not a reasonable, fair-minded, responsive person who is going to change their way following a bit of enlightening communication.
I really hope it's not so, but your suggestions suggest that Cats hasn't quite tried hard enough, like it is really quite simple, but she's just overlooked it. It really isn't Cats' fault that her spouse is shaky on what might constitute a fair contribution toward running a home, but it has become her problem.
I'm sorry you are feeling trapped, Cats. I have so much empathy for your predicament.

@EveSix

I don't feel comfortable sharing, but yes I have.

From my observations both from my/our own therapy sessions and from talking to other people, most of the so-called work is to get the other side to be 'reasonable' and change. But that rarely happens, so the person then thinks well I've tried so hard and gone to therapy etc etc, and nothing has changed.

The truth is that the only real point of therapy should be to learn to let go and accept. Nobody is perfect, and no matter whom you end up with, there'll be thing that person does that annoy you, and things they should be doing but don't. The real question is do you get enough value out of the relationship that you can just overlook these niggles.

I'd say that if people were honest with themselves, the vast majority of the time they do. Take for example a husband who never does any washing up or whatever. That could be done by a hiring a cleaner for what, 50 quid a week? So is that minor problem worth throwing everything away? I'm talking when the husband provides an income, companionship, emotional support etc. You'll find that usually the benefits far outweigh the areas he lacks. And the same goes the other way around too.

However, what often happens is that resentment sets in, and instead of being easy going and accepting the partner isn't perfect, you just stew and seethe. Then you suddenly find yourself married for 20 years and you're strangers with mutual loathing. But it was so unnecessary, and if both partners would just have realised early on that they're not perfect either, and it's not worth jettisoning a relationship for that, they could have had a beautiful life.

The one good thing is that it's not too late. You can always reboot your marriage with different outlooks and acceptances, and really start living. In businesses employers will often put in much work and training to get employees up to scratch, because the cost of firing and hiring can be far higher than perfecting what you already have.

And it's not like her next partner, if she does find someone, won't have his own faults. We all do.

What a depressing thread. I was in same positiin. Early 20s in a new relationship and you are carefree and in love. Even when you move in together you don't have the life experience to realise he is a bit lazy as there are way less chores before you have kids. Now happily divorced there was no difference when he left since I was clearly doing everything...apart from there was 1 less person messing the house up and dropping their shite everywhere. I am still bitter about his complete lack of respect for the house, for me and the kids. How could he never think about the kids dinner...ever. I would never live with anyone again...EVER.....

Take for example a husband who never does any washing up or whatever. That could be done by a hiring a cleaner for what, 50 quid a week? So is that minor problem worth throwing everything away? I'm talking when the husband provides an income, companionship, emotional support etc

That type of men we are talking about, they don't provide all those things you need in a marriage though, do they? A husband who lets the wife do everything and creates more mess himself is just saying that fuck you wife, I'm better than you, you can pick up my shit - where's the respect? Husband who is incompetent on purpose and pretends he has no idea children wear clothes when they go outdoors, so wife has to do it all - how can the same husband be loving and caring?

They aren’t.

many women have sleepwalked into relationships where the men do not give a shit about them.

the absolute disrespect of letting your wife deal with all this shit herself, and ignoring her pleas when she tries to communicate and divide chores. They quite