To wonder why so many women put up with this shit

[Stylishkidintheriot]

www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/15/how-to-achieve-an-equal-split-of-household-chores-kate-mangino#comment-158160830

I don’t get it: I really don’t. Not in this day and age.

if a man isn’t pulling his weight, why the fuck would you stay in a relationship or have children with him?

Only read the first page of this and it’s full of ‘well my perfect DH Colin would never do this, as we sat down at the start and discussed how fucking perfect we are and what a wonderful couple we are’ posts.

Cringe honestly, typical Mumsnet, any excuse for some to have a boast.

Maybe the problem is we consider people having these discussions and finding equal-ish partenr a boast.... Should be a standard

I've seen the dynamic in couples of all ages, both childfree and families.

Sometimes it's subtle, like friends of ours in their late-30s who we often visit for dinner. They have two children under 3 years old, we are childfree. This couple share all the cooking, cleaning and parenting equally. But at dinner, I've noticed that there's a moment when the kids need to be put to bed and they have a quick discussion about who's going to do it. Every time this discussion ends with the wife offering to do it and him making absolutely no protest. I have no doubt that on normal evenings they share this duty equally, but when there's something more fun to do (i.e. chatting with friends), he gets that extra hour of freedom.

Another couple in their late 40s are childfree, he is quite blatantly the lazier, and she does absolutely everything for their dogs.

I could list dozens of other, small examples like this, in superficially modern and egalitarian relationships. Even my own, though I try to recognise and challenge these things (and not be an entitled dick myself).

There is no good reason for these imbalances to exist in these particular relationships, it's just entitlement.

No it’s not, it’s just the rush to come on here and weirdly tell us all how much they are the opposite to this, all because they had the foresight to have ‘that talk’. So they must be extremely sensible and everyone else with a frankly useless husband must be an idiot who puts up with shit. The reality is they were lucky to marry a decent man.

If only life were that simple for everyone.

Toxic masculinity is a HUGE problem.
It's in schools (head teacher tweeting pictures of him climbing a mountain etc etc brag brag..everything about strength and determination, and oh yes let's wave my willy around)
It's even in Scouts. The leaders are all about 'banter' . I don't think its harmless fun.
Banter is my personal hate.
My DS is exposed to banter at school every day and is expected to take it and give it... its excused by teachers.
I'm totally over 'banter'. Literally has no place in society. Its not 'laughing with someone' but at them. Never funny.
It's just part of this whole picture.
This will never change while so many other things are structurally wrong in our society and are changing at a glacial pace.

they are excused forgetting things like birthdays more than women (e.g. my mother laughs if my brother forgets but wouldn't if I did). So they're allowed to get away with a lot more when women aren't.

Who is making the fuss over people forgetting birthdays, other women I would guess?? I think, men generally don't give a shit or place as much emphasis on whether they receive a present/card or not. Generally speaking it is not a big deal for them. From my observations it is women who bring cakes into the office on their birthday or makes a fuss over a work colleagues birthday. Men won't even bother to tell their work colleagues that it their birthday and will generally not get the hump if their wider friendship group does not acknowledge it or make a fuss. It is quite liberating to be honest.

IME things got worse over time. In the early stages of our relationship things were quite even. having kids was a turning point. I took on most of the cooking and cleaning when I was on mat leave and he just never started doing work again when I went back to work. IME wilful ignorance is a common tactic- for example, I do not know how to cook that can you do it? You do that so much better- waste of time me starting- the kids respond better to their mum etc. In my case, DH has done little paid work or providing either. I heard him with friends once saying that his uncle had given him the best advice- offer to do the washing up in the early part of the marriage and keep dropping the plates. Eventually they will get fed up with you and kick you out of the kitchen... says it all.

@Dajeeling

What if it wasn't luck?

If your child was starting out in a relationship would you consider them 'lucky' if their oh was decent? Or would you expect that would be the bare fuvking minimum standard they should accept?

It is liberating, and it's the reason I never tell work colleagues when my birthday is. There are sometimes cultural pressures on women to remember birthdays within families though.

It's one of the things I sometimes worry about, because the women in my husband's family do all the birthday and Christmas cards. We have a system where we deal with our own families, which is fine (especially for me, because my family doesn't do birthdays beyond a text). As far as I know, my husband sends the cards and presents he needs to, but I sometimes wonder, if he doesn't, are they judging me or him?

There are loads of little things like this that I feel aware of, even if I've actively chosen to reject them. My husband doesn't feel that pressure of expectation, or the tiny internal conflicts that come from making even the smallest, lamest political gesture of not being responsible for sending cards.

Yes, they know exactly what they're doing. It's only feigned stupidity.

You are lucky if the person you marry stays that way, yes. Hence there would be no need for divorce.

Yes, many are walking red flags and obviously you wouldn’t go near unless you had no self-esteem or standards (and clearly many people don’t). But yes, luck is involved, no talent or skill. Certainly not enough to come boasting on here and insinuating others in unequal relationships are stupid, just count your blessings big time and have some empathy.

@Almondsandraisins i didn’t say that if I were sick I would still be pushing buttons. When I’m sick DH does everything, I’m just not often sick. What I actually said was when I’m very pregnant I won’t want to be lifting the laundry baskets about because they’re heavy. And it’s not like he said “you’ll have to do the rest” I only specifically mentioned to him about the lifting, if I asked him to do the the whole thing then he would. It’s not like I’m gonna be incapable of pushing buttons when I’m pregnant is it? I just used it as an example of how he might help out more when I need him to. That’s all. If I was bedridden it would be a different story. I think it’s time to stop reading into what I said like it’s a line of ww2 poetry and we are in year 10 English class.

@Topgub so do you think my DH should be working full time and do half the house chores, while I don’t work at all and do half the chores? I’m not sure that’s what you do believe, I’m just asking because I’m not sure what the best option is in your opinion, all I know is that doesn’t seem fair to me. Can you clarify your opinion on exactly what the best work/chores/etc split is in a relationship in your opinion? Maybe I can get a better grasp of where we aren’t seeing eye to eye then.

@tiggergoesbounce thank you so much for being a kind and positive poster, it’s genuinely brightened my mood after dealing with some of the misunderstandings of others on here. I’ll be far more reluctant to post in the future I think, for fear of being misconstrued… but still you give me hope! I hope you have a lovely day 🥰

TopGub,
"The bit where you said 'feminists' think and do x like they were a separate breed."
But I didn't though. I said:
And because we do know, feminists in particular could stop acting so astonished.
"We" referring to those of us engaging in this conversation.
"feminists" referring to those of us in the "we" who think of ourselves as feminists.

nothing cringe about having standards and normalising it

it is however, pure cringe, to let a man ejaculate in you who needs project managing when it comes to essential household tasks

Unfortunately there’s a lot more women with lazy fucker husbands than women who can be smug at marrying an equal partner.

@Dajeeling

I dont think its talent or skill or luck.

We absolutely, as a society, have to educate young people more on raising their standards in relationships. Stop telling women that bagging a man and having kids is the ultimate goal worth every sacrifice.

Yes, people change but often not that much. The clues were always there and if they do change you don't have to accept it.

Its ok to walk away if they can't treat you with respect and as an equal.

Someone asked earlier if it was worth their children's happiness.

I'd much rather teach my kids not to accept being treated like shit in a relationship is the norm.

@EveSix

Sorry, I cant make that make sense.

It was an odd phrasing if you meant to include yourself in the admonishment

Luck.

It's like if I get nice steak. Was it luck?
I could always dip my hand into the shelf and randomly pick a steak. After all, they are all similar, aren't they. But I could also look at few properly and see if they are all full of the weirds chewy bits or are nice and lean-ish.

Sometimes you have BAD luck and even nice looking one turns out shit, but having good steak is not luck if you actually thought and considered the steaks. It's just bad luck if you still end up with bad one.

Does that make sense?

I'm nearly 50 and I honestly don't know a single 50/50 couple with or without children. The only ones who are even vaguely close are the couple of older lesbian couples I know. But they also lead quite independent of each other lives and are not more than 10 years together in both cases. No children.
I don't know a single mother who has a partner who shares the 'wife work' load equally. I've already mentioned my childless friends in my OP. The ones with children all have fairly traditional set ups despite not being particularly traditional type women and well educated. It all started on maternity leave. Usually after 2nd child not first. I've got one friend who can't even leave her husband with her teenagers for a day without meals being left and instructions for the day. I would say I'm shocked. But I'm not. It's not that unusual however much people are on here saying it is. I've got 2 teenagers and in all the years of arranging playdates, pick ups, parties etc I've only ever had one dad do this with me its always women. He was separated so had to as he has kids more than 50/50 which is very unusual.
Im divorced because I was sick of the mental load (and other issues not just this). Barely noticed the difference in increased workload. And I get some time off now when ex has them (not 50/50 of course!)

@PewterHeart

I'm not sure how you got that from my comment.

I think sexist beliefs like yours are damaging.

The ideal, imo, in a couple is for them to share work, housework and childcare as equally as possible. (And, no that doesn't mean each doing 50% of each thing before someone says how unachievable it is)

That means no one is solely responsible for 1 thing. No one can advance their career while the other can't and no one gets to do all the parenting while the other misses out.

Balance and fairness

@PewterHeart its absolutely fine. I hate to see the usual suspects goading and "misunderstanding" on purpose.
If you take a step back, you will see they do it on every single thread, and when they start getting ignored they @ people and get all goady.

This thread is no exception i see.

Please dont step away from the forum, we need as many level headed posters as possible and most posters, although they may not agree with your point of view, they are usually, respectful and are open to a decent discussion, its the very few who cant comprehend people making different choices so want to drag others down. Don't let them, it just highlights their failings, not yours.

Oh and congrats on the pregnancy

@Topgub okay I think I understand you better now. I think that’s a reasonable opinion to have, it’s just not a solution that works for me. I seriously absolutely do not want a job or a career. I’m not interested in earning money or getting a promotion or any status I might get from having a good job/career. To me it doesn’t seem worth the effort and stress. A happy, clean, warm, inviting home and raising happy and healthy children does seem worth any stress and effort it takes, so I’m focussed on that. And I’m honestly not saying that if a woman has a career it’s pointless - not at all! It absolutely is worth it as long as the woman believes it is worth it. Imagine having to do a job you hate, that wouldn’t really feel worth it to you, right (aside from monetary gain)? To me that is literally all jobs (I’ve tried many, including being self employed) even the job where I worked only 10 hours per week at a prestigious private school where everyone was sweet as pie and the benefits were great was too much stress and effort and even though I was getting paid etc I didn’t really feel like it was worth it in my soul, yknow? I wasn’t really doing anything worthwhile to me. I understand that’s not everyone’s cup of tea or opinion but it genuinely is mine. I’m happier out of the work force and I look forward to being a SAHM. I wish you well and I hope you’re able to achieve and maintain your ideal balance of relationship! 😊

Ah I understand, I shall try not to be discouraged!

And thank you very much, we are really excited! Clearing out the spare room ready for a nursery 🤩

@PewterHeart

That's fair enough except earlier in the thread you were fairly adamant that feeling like that was because you were a woman and that most women naturally feel like that

Your inability to cope with work isn't down to your sex.

I suppose you should count yourself lucky that at your age you've managed to find an oh willing to bank roll you.

I hope for your sake that doesn't change

@PewterHeart
I don't think many people disagree that children need a home with their needs met. That having them in wrap around childcare etc is far from ideal and home cooked meals are the best.
But the reality is that women give up things to do this with a promise from their DH in return to be supported financially and emotionally. And then when the DH doesn't do this, circumstances change, he leaves and so on, they're screwed
Also a lot of us don't feel like we went to university and have brains in our heads to be treated like the 'forman' of the house and have to manage everything boring. Apart from anything else it's exhausting, lonely and often thankless. It's the world's biggest turn off too. Who wants sex with a lazy man-child.
It doesnt mean we don't want to do everything for our children. In fact the reason why most of us do it/did it for so long is because we don't want our children to miss out or suffer, and we are in a situation financially of no choice. It also takes a long time to realise.

But I'm sure you know this!