To wonder why so many women put up with this shit

[Stylishkidintheriot]

www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/15/how-to-achieve-an-equal-split-of-household-chores-kate-mangino#comment-158160830

I don’t get it: I really don’t. Not in this day and age.

if a man isn’t pulling his weight, why the fuck would you stay in a relationship or have children with him?

Well that's another thing Betty Friedan nailed over 50 years ago. Upselling crap that makes domestic chores needlessly complicated in order to make it seem like a real science, and an occupation that women should therefore feel mentally stimulated by

Yes. I'm glad she didn't dress down Julia Childs in real life though! You can cook and eat nice food and enjoy cooking and still be a feminist.

Too right. And cooking, unlike laundry, actually can be extremely complicated and mentally stimulating. You don't get men aspiring to be Michelin-starred launderers (not that kind of laundering anyway).

Where there's status and skill involved, men hog the limelight, even in occupations like cooking where the vast majority of it worldwide is done by women. Men begrudge the boring work of providing day to day nutrients, but they don't seem to have this innate incompetence when it comes to status cooking, like barbecuing, carving the Christmas turkey, or being a top chef.

This x100
Well said, @EveSix
There are any number of reasons why women end up in these situations. Willful naivety and internalised misogyny may account for some cases but by no means all. Weaponised incompetence and even abuse by men are things that can creep up on women in marriages. Even smart and independent women. It's a classic abuser technique for men who were previously helpful and good natured to flip once the woman gets pregnant and has a baby. If you haven't experienced it yourself, and if your Sebastian would never behave that way, then we'll done you, be thankful, and use your imagination before you judge other women. You have no idea what is going on behind closed doors.

Surely thats obvious though. You "set out your stall" before you start making those important decisions like buying houses and having children.

I think it was a bit easier for us, as we lived together before marrying or buying a house. My parents didnt do that, they went straight from courting, to marriage then living together and i dont believe you really know anyone until you live with them.

I hated cooking so my now DH did all that, i hated washing and ironing so my DH did all that and i used to do the tidying around and shopping.
I would have moved straight back out has my DH not been able or willing to do his fare share. But i knew the relationship i wanted (or definately didn't want).

I do think its really short sighted to try and place the blame at womens door for the behaviour of men or saying they facilitate that behaviour. There are a million reasons why women stay with partners and to say they should just "not put up with it" or just leave is quite simplistic. The blame lies solely at the mans door for the mans behaviour.

Our DS sees mummy and daddy caring for him, looking after the house and caring for eachother, that will hopefully help with his view of "roles" alongside what we verbally instill in him.
I would never be so niave as to believe all other women have had that opportunity.

As pp says it is quite stimulating. Hard as job and not particularly great when it comes to unsocial hours and safety when pregnant so that's probably why nearly 3/4 of chefs are men.
Also that is proving man are able to cook and they don't have some automatic male dna predisposition not to be able to 😁 (anyone can cook if they actually want to! Bar very few disabilities of course)

Well I’ve been thoroughly lambasted for making a crappy joke/off handed comment that everyone seems to have taken way too seriously on purpose… are we not allowed to make light of anything at all? My DH and I make lighthearted jests at each other all the time. If I said he couldn’t do laundry to him he’d probably laugh, but when we have serious conversations we both know he’s fully capable of doing everything I do, it’s just that with work he doesn’t have the time to do it unless he did it in the evenings. I don’t work at all so it makes sense for me to do most of the chores because then they’re done in like a 9-5 work day and we have our evenings together to do whatever we want. But if I died or something he would be able to look after himself. I don’t understand why people are misunderstanding me on purpose and coming to ridiculous conclusions like he doesn’t respect me or I must think he’s stupid. He makes a point to thank and actively appreciate me for everything I do, even the small things. No doubt that’s a negative thing too in everyone else’s eyes though. How sensitive and fragile and oppressed I must be to NEED his praise for vacuuming. Maybe it’s the hormones but frankly I’m finding it all quite upsetting that no one seems to be able to understand or appreciate my personal life choices and sees fit to mock me and insult my DH and our relationship. We’ve both worked hard at different things and we are happy… I thought that’s a good thing, regardless of whether anyone else would do the same thing. I’m going to try not to get involved in this thread any further (I’m sure you’ll all be glad about that) because it’s pointless when people are intent on misunderstanding me and assuming the absolute worst possible interpretation of anything I say. I hope you all have a pleasant afternoon and evening.

TopGub, which part of my post would suggest to you I'm not?
I just don't make a habit of judging other women, especially not when I, by comparison, am positively dripping with privilege.
I'm also not preoccupied with whether I 'respect' the life-choices of other women or not, or setting standards for them. I don't gate-keep or 'approve'. I know that being able to live in congruence and integrity with one's values is a massive luxury. I love, centre and advocate for women as a class. My suggestion that feminists in particular would do well to stop acting astonished in this context is simply a call to awareness of this startingpoint.

And thanks, Olinguita.

Because for every woman coming on this site making a lighthearted joke about how her DH cannot do the laundry who doesn't mean it, there is a woman reading threads on here with a lazy/abusive husband gaslighting her telling her that all woman do the laundry and she is wrong to expect him to do any, and comments like that may make her feel like her partner is right.

Because for every woman coming on this site making a lighthearted joke about how her DH cannot do the laundry who doesn't mean it, there is a woman having to do all the laundry because her DH refuses and she can't be bothered to argue any more because its normal isn't it, after all other women laugh about it on mumsnet so she must be wrong to resent it.

Because for every woman coming on this site making a lighthearted joke about how her DH cannot do the laundry who doesn't mean it, alongside them are MRA's posting the same things to encourage women back into their little neatly defined 'feminine' boxes because they don't want equality.

Because for every woman coming on this site making a lighthearted joke about how her DH cannot do the laundry who doesn't mean it, is a mediocre man who thinks its okay not to do the laundry because even women say men can't possible understand how to do it.

Because you might not like to believe it, but if you were ill enough that your DH had to carry the laundry downstairs for you, but you were still expected to press the buttons (as you yourself have stated) then you are married to a man who does not respect you.

This is not normal behaviour, regardless of how many hours your DH works. Good husbands who respect their wives are capable of doing the washing, even if its normally the wifes job, when their wife is ill without expecting her to drag herself out of bed to select the programme and press go.

@PewterHeart please dont be upset about certain posters on here, they make it their sole aim to attack others with your views. (Especially making jokes...tut tut you !!!)

You are entitled to your opinions the same as everyone else and you sound like a really nice person, with more grace and manners than most.

You do you, if you are happy, just keep enjoying your life and the rest of your day

Oh and yes @PewterHeart best to stop engaging with some, its futile

PewterHeart, it's been pointed out several times that this thread is not about you and your situation. You're happy with your traditional* roles, fine. This thread is about people who are not happy with it, and to discuss why our culture reinforces the idea that men can't / shouldn't do domestic work.

You came into the thread determined to be offended.

*though traditional in this context is nonsense anyway, historically it's really only middle and upper class people who have been able to afford to have the wife stay at home. It's a post-industrial age construct.

If someone comes on a serious thread about a subject which impacts many women, about behaviours that can be borderline abusive, and makes comments and only when she is picked up on them by several users cries 'it was a joke' maybe she would be better of sticking to the lighthearted threads instead of complaining everyone took her seriously.

If someone comes on a serious thread about a subject which impacts many women, about behaviours that can be borderline abusive, and makes comments and only when she is picked up on them by several users cries 'it was a joke' maybe she would be better of sticking to the lighthearted threads instead of complaining everyone took her seriously

Anyone can comment where they like, and voice any opinion they like. It would be nice if that could be done with manners, sadly some cant.

@Olinguita

Thar kind of implies or suggests that women have no option but to put up with abuse, mistreatment and lack of respect because its crept up on them.

@EveSix

The bit where you said 'feminists' think and do x like they were a separate breed

I'm not preoccupied with respecting others life choices either. Except when they demand I do. As so often happens with sahms/trad wives.

@PewterHeart

we both know he’s fully capable of doing everything I do,

Well. Yes. exactly

So why pretend that women are just naturally so much better at working washings machines because they're just so more naturally suited to doing the drudge work unlike those naturally clever men who are just so much more naturally suited to being all clever and not doing any housework?

Can't you see how damaging those kind of beliefs are?

@Olinguita absolutely well said.

While I do agree that there are many, often complex, reasons why women find themselves in these kinds of relationships, that's really not what the article, or the thrust of the thread is about.

Abusive relationships are a different kettle of fish than ones where the dynamic is influenced by patriarchal constructs that are thousands of years in the making. Albeit that the upshot for the women involved may look similar.

There is nothing wrong with interrogating those constructs and their origins, and questioning whether internalised misogyny perpetuates them. We can't all be policy-makers unfortunately. Some of us (like me) are just tedious blow-hards with an anthropology degree who like to noodle ideas around.

I fully admit that I am in the luxurious position of having a husband who doesn't take the piss, but that doesn't mean I am ignorant of other women having more complicated situations. There are women, however, who put up with a lot of shit for no good reason, and our culture as a whole promotes the idea that it's normal.

Brilliant post @Olinguita

@TheLeadbetterLife

Exactly!

if we keep leaving it up to men then, clearly, nothing will change. Ever. Why would it?

And I know it feels counter intuitive to say women shoulder some of the blame but they do!

Its not easy to buck the trend. And there's loads of situations where its actually impossible

But thats not an excuse to just keep putting up with it.

Too many women are happy with the status quo. Too many think they benefit from it.

I have quite a few friends without children. And yes it seems that even they do not have a 50/50 division despite working same amounts etc. But they're all with men over 50. Not sure if mans age is relevant. They still do most wife work. Their male partners do chores but don't seem to take responsibility for things mentally. They're also all into the fun chores like cooking lovely meals with interesting ingredients or buying some interesting furniture, but less about getting the leaky tap fixed or paying a bill. They're not especially macho or practical men so not sure if that's relevant (think lefty arty types)
I'm afraid to say that I'm very sceptical, and genuinely of the belief now that men do think women should do this stuff and have no guilt about it not being done. It's incredibly hard to completely beat an entire societal system. I have a young teen boy and compared to his sister at the same age he really isn't as clued up or capable with practical tasks. Believe me I try. He's more immature. I'm a feminist and it pains me greatly that Im some how raising a son who will turn into one of these men. Right now compared to his sister it looks that way. I think maybe as mum's we give up easily on our boys. My son is so frustrating when asked to attempt anything or take responsibility.

It's not the age. I know couple in their 30s who have these set ups. No kids. And they keep moaning... Luckily I know more where people have split stuff quite equally. I do wonder if for example how money are/are not shared makes difference? We keep our separate and from what I understand at least ome of the more fairer couples too.

It's definitely also an element of selfishness which I think is a society thing. Men don't seem to notice others feeling on things as much as women. So they don't mind dirt so they don't clean, they don't notice this needs doing so don't, they are excused forgetting things like birthdays more than women (e.g. my mother laughs if my brother forgets but wouldn't if I did). So they're allowed to get away with a lot more when women aren't.
It seems to start with boys.
I'm trying my hardest to change with my son. But I don't feel I'm winning!

The people I know are all well off and well educated. What used to be called 'metrosexuals'.

I also know a fair few same sex families with children And I don't think they are especially equal either. In fact there's been recent research showing divorce rates high amongst female same-sex couples. There was an OT on this on MN recently.
The similarity is the inequality started with maternity leave and part time working.

It's a lot with feelings. Like birthdays for example. Man are not supposed to be emotional. I think that's their rod for their own backs as well (hence number of suicides....). If they have feelings they are called "pussies" by man and women. Meanwhile we are told we are weird if we don't cry watching Titanic🤷🏻 ffs

Tbh i think that masculinity, toxic masculinity, has fucked up lives of majority of people of both sexes.