To think our attitude towards the elderly is bad in the UK?

[Fifife]

Currently on holiday in Crete, it's my first time here. I can't believe the difference you see the very elderly all the time at the tavernas sitting relaxing with their friends and friends. Playing games together, laughing joking they seem to be very much still involved in society. It's made me sad , the elderly seem to become invisible at home. What could we do to change this ?

I think that's a generalisation, my parents are both 80 ,my mum is very disabled and frail and often doesn't want to go anywhere we still visit them loads though as do some of her friends who are not disabled
There are plenty of physically healthy and mobile elderly people that get out and about .

YANBU - I think really it’s a fear of death and avoidance of facing it/talking about it that sometimes causes us to shy away from elderly people.

One place it isn’t like that in the U.K. is churches, where all ages mix together from newborn to the very elderly, and those who are ill or housebound are still visited/remembered in services etc. But otherwise I think we’re sorely lacking in “third spaces” where people can be and play together and community spirit.

I think it’s like many issues though - you create your reality and see what you believe. So if you believe something different to what you’re seeing in your life, think about what you can do to change it - check on elderly neighbours, invite them over for a cuppa, volunteer somewhere, join a scheme where you can write letters/phone care home residents, take your elderly relatives out or include them in family gatherings etc etc.

I agree, I'm a nurse and have found with a lot of elderly people it's a case of 'out of sight out of mind' sadly.

I seem to remember that Greece had (has?) a very low retirement age with a good pension for all. It was one of the issues that was highlighted when Greece went bust.

Where I'm from the elderly are very much out and about! I'm sure they're the only ones keeping all of the pubs and coffee shops going in the local town.

We used to visit Athens regularly pre Covid and noticed that old and young seem to do the same thing and go to the same places in the evenings. The area around Acropolis on a Saturday night is full of people of all ages, couples, groups of girls/women, groups of men/boys, families, old,young, all just strolling around enjoying the atmosphere or sitting chatting. Saw one group of three girls, one checking her phone and the other two playing backgammon. You wouldn’t get that here.

Is that just sheer luck though?

my friends range from 20 - 90. So do mum's. And dad when he was here.

they are in groups where three generations in the pub is normal. Across friends, not just families.

I think the good weather in Greece and other countries helps. I also noticed lots of very elderly folk sitting chatting, playing chess or other games outside a tavern but they were all elderly men.
Women of a similar age would be sweeping up, doing laundry or walking very slowly to the shops, in other words all the housework. Maybe in the evenings they would be sitting outside their door steps doing some kind of craft.
I agree that grandparents do seem to be more included in family life.

I agree. I think older adults (the preferred term rather than lumping them into an undifferentiated homogenous mass of people) are so much more divorced from other generations in white, Anglo-Saxon cultures. Not sure this is the case for older generations of people who lived within other cultures in the UK.

I think economic and social policies have encouraged families to disperse so younger generations aren't necessarily just around the corner; get-togethers are fewer and many older adults are impoverished so get to do fewer things.

There's also a policy discourse which infantilises older adults (the 'we must look after our old folk' talk without delivering the means to make them financially independent and in charge of their own lives and decisions. Locally, however, there are organisations (usually the third sector) who do some fantastic work.

Sad state of affairs from government but it doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon

I agree and think there are several reasons for this. The ‘elderly culture’ in the U.K. seems to be about retreating from life rather than going into it. It seems to be the ‘done thing’ for people of retirement age (or slightly younger) to move to the countryside or semi-rurally. This means they end up in quite isolated locations, harder for family to reach and where they end up staying home a lot. They basically ‘withdraw’ from the world. Their physical and mental health then declines quite rapidly as they don’t do much or really see anyone.

Compared to places like Paris, where it’s very normal for the elderly to live in central apartments and flats, they just seem to ‘age’ much faster.

Clearly there are cultural differences but also isn't this that the weather makes people much more visible because they're outside? I live in an area with quite an elderly population, and pubs and cafes are full of older people around me, it doesn't feel at all to me that they become invisible or disappear, thankfully. If you go out for lunch during the week it's pretty clear that the older demographic is singlehandedly keeping these places open!

It seems to be the ‘done thing’ for people of retirement age (or slightly younger) to move to the countryside or semi-rurally. This means they end up in quite isolated locations, harder for family to reach and where they end up staying home a lot. They basically ‘withdraw’ from the world. Their physical and mental health then declines quite rapidly as they don’t do much or really see anyone.

I agree that rural living can hasten hasten social isolation. Especially if you can no longer drive. We live in a smallish city, fairly central but quiet, a few minutes walk away from a busy street with pubs, coffee shops, Co-op, chemist etc. We wouldn’t move to the country.

I think it depends more on the location within the country, rather than the country itself. Crete does not represent the whole of Greece. And there will be chilled out areas around the UK where you see pensioners out and about more than in some other places.

So ethnically I am Indian. In our culture, there are greater family bonds. I had a lot of support when DCs were young and I provide a lot of support for relatives currently where they need it. On MN I quite often see comments which effectively say we owe our parents/aunts/uncles nothing and that you should lead your "best life" without worrying about the implications for your elders. I am not saying this is wrong, just something we with our Asian mindsets struggle to get our head round. I am often surprised that many elderly people with children do not get visited from one month to the next. One family of an elderly man who lives locally had not been to see him for six months before he died. However, whilst he was lying ill in hospital they arrived asking us for keys so they could start to clear the house out.

I think the same is similar for elderly and children alike. I think part of this is the lack of non commercialised social spaces in the UK. I remember being in a town near Rome in the evening and being amazed by how people of all ages were outside just hanging around/ having a walk and chatting, I've never seen anything like that here.

It's mostly the weather. On European holidays you see loads of people walking about or sitting in cafes with coffees or drinks. People of all ages but the older ones often stay put for ages.

Here days where you could do that are usually few and far between and sitting in the same place for ages would probably be discouraged because we need people buying drinks and food not sitting and watching the world go by.

It's a paradox - we treat old people much worse than our European counterparts and yet almost every political policy is geared towards them because tories know pensioners are their meal ticket.

I agree the weather makes a huge difference. The culture where people close down in the afternoon and have a siesta suits the elderly much better.

I agree that this is a big difference you see in many other cultures, but it seems to be entirely climate-driven - I've never seen a cold country create similar spaces. You get dedicated community centres etc but there doesn't seem to be any indoor equivalent to that sort of informal outdoor public square interaction. If you go back to these places in the depths of winter they're not doing it then, either.

I'm a nurse so probably my experiences are skewed but many of my patients can go for months without any visitors. I live in a semi rural place and I don't see the elderly just out and about relaxing I wonder if there's a link between cognitive decline and lack of involvement in society. I will to look for the research.

Surely it’s up to the old people? If they want to go out they can. I see old people out and about quite a lot where I live.

You are on holiday so probably by the sea in summer. I think you would probably see the same in a lot of UK resorts in the summer. Bognor Eastbourne etc. In Crete the summer lasts much longer.

It's a vastly better quality of life in warmer countries for the elderly. The problem here is the damp, cold weather which is painful for old bones and means people stay indoors, especially retired people. It's a shame they voted to remove our right to free movement to live and retire in warmer countries.

I wonder if that's a factor. I know some people think Londoners are unfriendly but I have known a neighbourhood/local community in every area I've lived in -which totals 7.

I have even lived sarf of the river! 😂

I work in social care and I used to think that this was true, cognitive decline leads to lack of social inclusion, but more and more I am starting to wonder if it is the acceptance/even the active seeking of isolation that increases the risk of cognitive decline. There is a lot of information telling us both social and intellectual pursuits keeps us alert for longer, but this is relatively new information and can be hard for older people to integrate into their life (I'm sure it's not new to lots of people but in my my background - working class it seems common to just wait for a time when we don't have to do anything but relax), and this is having massive consequences for our physical and mental health. I think social inclusion of the elderly is a problem, but this is caused by the personal attitudes to ones own life, as much as what the community around them expects. I hope this changes.