AIBU to think social mobility for working class children is now impossible?

[frozenlakes]

When I was growing up even people from the most deprived backgrounds could still better themselves despite their limitations.

Except the concept of "working your way up the ladder" just doesn't seem to exist anymore?

Every career route now seems to require at least a degree. I remember the time when there was little to no emphasis on qualifications or degrees, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer.
Dead-end administration jobs are being disguised as "entry level" positions and yet still require at least 5 GCSES and A levels.
It seems like if you don't have a degree you're stuck in low paid jobs with little opportunity for progression.

But then there's so much emphasis on Russell Group unis, which are statistically even more unrealistic for disadvantaged kids to get in to.

When it comes to owning property even young people from good socio-economic backgrounds will never get on the housing ladder, but at least they will most likely inherit a property. Working class kids wont.

I come from a "deprived" background - grew up on a council estate, left school at 16 with no qualifications, etc. But by the time I was 23 I'd "worked my way up" to a decent, well paid job (which now you'd need a degree for!) and had a mortgage. It scares me to think how different things would be for me if I was growing up in this day and age.

I guess I would compare this situation to encouraging girls to think about stem jobs. There are lots of things targeted at raising awareness of stem jobs and the benefits that it can offer them (eg flexible working for some tech jobs).

why can’t we have similar publicity for non-uni pathways? Including for those who don’t have 5 gcses. City and guild seem to have some v practical qualifications - I don’t know how helpful they are in industry and whether they can enhance a cv.

Spot on again. You need to be the representative of this thread 😂

what’s “nigh impossible” is for working class to move up to middle or upper class
And? Why should it be an inspiration to do so?

Sorry, aspiration!

But that is always the case for all societies that base themselves on capitalism.

You can't have mass upward mobility as capitalism is founded on the exploitation of the many by the few.

If you suddenly allowed all working class people to access a better standard of living then the 10% at the top wouldn't be able to buy a second home, a car for ever family member, a yacht, 4 holidays a year, or retire at 50, and we simply can't be having that now can we?

Nothing will changes until the 90% realise they cannot realistically become the 10% and instead start to enforce wealth redistribution.

As everyone is so keen to dismiss lived experience over their idea of what is correct - here is a graph based on actual data that shows social mobility is increasing. Between 2011 - 2020 31% of working class men experienced long range social mobility compared to just 13% between 1972-1980.

This 31% moved from working class backgrounds into jobs classed as ‘professional or managerial’ which includes roles such as doctors, engineers, senior army officers, teachers, web designers and journalists.

The 49% who experience short range social mobility moved from working class backgrounds into roles such as clerical workers, IT engineers or small business owners.

The report also rightly points out that although some are working class, their earning potential is higher than those in higher class brackets.

This is very true, however social mobility doesn't necessarily mean aiming for the top 10%

In my youth it was very easy for me to move from a very working class background with little money to what would be considered "middle class" (white collar job, good wage, mortgage) with little to no qualifications or experience.

The focus back then was much more "working your way up the ladder" by getting an entry level job and progressing, now the focus is much more on academic success - only "the brightest" and "most intelligent" students from working class backgrounds get a look in.
And we all know how middle class children are a lot more privileged when it comes to education; private schools, tutors, educational inequality, families who expect them to do well, "better" standard of living at home, etc.

Yes they are also confusing social mobility within a class with the social mobility you were referring to which is social mobility between the classes.

Ok but that's probably different to what most people mean when they talk about social mobility, which is not moving 'classes' per se, but about accessing jobs and houses previously regarded as 'middle class' (solicitors, engineers etc). That almost certainly has improved hugely.

I dare say though that the engineer offspring of the working class council housed parents don't really think about themselves as either working or middle class - it's not really a concept young people think too much about. Have they moved class as a result of their professional job and new-found wealth (though wealth does not equal MC)? Not sure. Does it matter? Do they want to? Will their offspring in due course consider themselves MC despite their grandparents humble roots.

Great post! Do love actual evidence!

@Thebestwaytoscareatory
But that is always the case for all societies that base themselves on capitalism.
You can't have mass upward mobility as capitalism is founded on the exploitation of the many by the few.

Exploitation of the many by the few pre-exists capitalism by quite a few millenia and honestly the only thing capitalism has to do with it is that it fails to counteract such exploitation inherent in human societies.

You don’t understand what capitalism is

And if your parents can only afford to live in areas with sink schools with terrible results?

If they can only get a private let so your education is disrupted by regularly ending tenancies and changing schools every 6 months or year when you have to move?

As the OP said, GCSEs and A’Levels don’t give social mobility anyway, just entry to a dead end.

How do they do internships when their parents can’t support them through unpaid periods? And when all the good internships are taken by middle class kids whose parents put in a good word with their mates to get them on them?

Not everyone pays care home fees and many people find a way around that anyway.

And working class parents give ‘no help’?

Congratulations, you are the most unpleasant, snobbiest and nastiest poster I’ve come across on Mumsnet.

While this was true, the trend has since gone into reverse:

”During the 20th century, significant structural shifts in society created ‘more room at the top’ (Bukodi and Goldthorpe, 2019): in 1951, the managerial and professional classes made up just 11 percent of the working male population, by 1971, 25 percent of the population, and by 1991, 35 percent of the population; by 2018 they made up 44 percent of the entire working population. A high proportion of postwar generations enjoyed upward mobility, filling the expanding jobs in hospitals, universities and central and local government created by the new welfare state.

But stalling growth in recent years has flipped this trend. Britain is on the verge of becoming a country where individuals’ chances of moving down the class structure are greater than their chances of moving up (Bukodi and Goldthorpe, 2019). ‘The emerging situation is one for which there is little historical precedent and that carries potentially far-reaching political and wider social implications’ (Bukodi et al, 2015). The UK is not alone in this. Similar structural trends are observed in other European nations (Breen and Müller, 2020, Bukodi and Goldthorpe, 2022).”
www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Social-Mobility-–-Past-Present-and-Future-final-updated-references.pdf

Sadly, it is outdated evidence showing the social mobility that was, not the social mobility that currently is.

@HorribleHerstory - just wanted to salute you, really. All things are possible, but it takes vision, incredible hard work, and unflagging determination. Well done you.

Erm, my children have their own rooms. Lots of free time. Parents who help them and give them nutritious food and pay for lots of sports.

One of my son's friend for example shared a room with 2 younger siblings. Her parents worked shifts so she was responsible for her siblings. Had to look after them, help with cooking, cleaning. Didn't get much quiet time to concentrate.

Her parents are lovely and caring, they just have to work very long hours to afford to live.

My wealthy friend's daughter is struggling with an a level subject. She pays for a tutor. Everyone in her family has gone to uni. Very likely that she will also go because amongst her peers, most of her friends' parents have gone to uni and most of her friends will too.

And I know plenty of young people who would have gone to uni when it was free, aren't going because they don't want the debts. Whereas kids from wealthy families, don't even have to worry about that.

For more money?

For the ability to choose to get on the housing ladder, rather than be forced to rent until the day you die?

For the ability to choose where you live rather than be assigned a random house from the council? Because lets be honest with the way its going now with inflation and the housing crisis working class children wont even be privately renting, let alone have a mortgage.

For a better standard of living for your children and future generations?

For better healthcare options? Especially with the way the NHS is going?

It's not snobbery to aspire for social mobility. Being "middle class" opens up so many doors and opportunities for people and their future generations, suggesting otherwise is extremely ignorant and privileged.

Exactly. It’s easy to blame the government, the neighbours or even the cat. But the parents are ultimately responsible for social mobility of their children.

Cue the excuses on why parents can’t be held responsible.

I think you will find in the real world, not many WC people aspire to be MC. MC is not 'better' than being WC.

It's also quite insulting to state that all WC people live in social housing or rent privately and none of them are home owners.

@sst1234 Multiple posts on here have acknowledged that parents can hold their children back from achieving? But you can't deny that the government have made it even harder for children coming from disadvantaged families/backgrounds. That is literally the whole point of the thread.

There's some very middle class people on here living in cloud cuckoo land who think the blame of poverty lies solely on the individual for not "working hard" enough. It's totally laughable.

You have a very skewed version of WC people. Perhaps stop watching C5 Benefits Britain shows. .

I live in the real world. I grew up WC. I never said being MC is "better" status wise than WC, I said it opens up a lot of doors and opportunities for people and their future generations. Read the post back maybe?

When did I say all WC people live in social housing and don't own homes? I'm saying with inflation and the housing crisis it's making it impossible for future working class generations to get on the property ladder. Are you feeling okay?

Yes it’s true there is a culture in WC of knowing your place and discouraging youth from becoming a “class traitor”

As for home ownership, working class is getting squeezed out of that. As of 2017 only 38% of working class raised in rented accommodation went on to be home owners themselves, compared to 46% in 2009.
Page 33 of www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Social-Mobility-–-Past-Present-and-Future-final-updated-references.pdf

@CuriousCatfish Whos talking about Benefits Britain? 😂 Why do you think working class is synonymous with Benefits Britain? Very odd indeed.

But the parents are ultimately responsible for social mobility of their children.

Yes, the biggest factor on social mobility is having rich or poor parents. The rich ones are obviously the more responsible ones and the poor ones irresponsible for not being rich and having children they “can’t afford”. 🙄

”The authors highlight whilst the pace at which wealth inequalities are widening is rapid, this should be considered as a long-term policy issue which without some form of intervention will be further compounded over time. Initiatives should focus efforts to level up and improve the life chances of those with low or even zero family resources to draw on. Ignoring this will lead to a growing ‘economic penalty’ of being born to parents of low wealth which will increasingly constrain individuals’ life choices and have profound ramifications in later life.

The researchers, Dr Ricky Kanabar and Professor Paul Gregg from Bath’s Centre for the Analysis of Social Policy, argue that policymakers must re-focus efforts to address wealth inequality and social immobility and the factors which determine it.
repec-cepeo.ucl.ac.uk/cepeow/cepeowp22-01.pdf