AIBU to think social mobility for working class children is now impossible?

[frozenlakes]

When I was growing up even people from the most deprived backgrounds could still better themselves despite their limitations.

Except the concept of "working your way up the ladder" just doesn't seem to exist anymore?

Every career route now seems to require at least a degree. I remember the time when there was little to no emphasis on qualifications or degrees, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer.
Dead-end administration jobs are being disguised as "entry level" positions and yet still require at least 5 GCSES and A levels.
It seems like if you don't have a degree you're stuck in low paid jobs with little opportunity for progression.

But then there's so much emphasis on Russell Group unis, which are statistically even more unrealistic for disadvantaged kids to get in to.

When it comes to owning property even young people from good socio-economic backgrounds will never get on the housing ladder, but at least they will most likely inherit a property. Working class kids wont.

I come from a "deprived" background - grew up on a council estate, left school at 16 with no qualifications, etc. But by the time I was 23 I'd "worked my way up" to a decent, well paid job (which now you'd need a degree for!) and had a mortgage. It scares me to think how different things would be for me if I was growing up in this day and age.

@Discovereads I'm interested in knowing more about your argument.

Just for context, the domain (and company) I'm in requires people to be able to be able to work independently, learn on the job, and be able to employ a range of technical skills (maths, coding, software development) as well as soft skills (ability to understand what stakeholders want and be able to communicate insights with them). Which is why I like to focus on candidates who can demonstrate to me that they have the ability to learn quickly, adapt to new circumstances, and identify opportunities/tasks without being explicitly told everything they need to do.

It's not a job that anyone can do, but I do try and be fair in the selection process - which is why I don't focus on grades. I focus on the person's core abilities.

I take issue with your opinion that there's been greater emphasis on minority races. How about the Chinese and Asian communities that have worked hard to get where they are today. Do you think perhaps, white parents are less involved in their children's education? White kids more likely to come from single parent households/teenage pregnancies. The problem is not that the government isn't helping white kids it's that the ethnic minorities are more involved in the education of their young.

A person can possess all those abilities without having work experience. Surely the process of doing a dissertation or thesis or research project meets those requirements to work independently, learn “on the job” of academic research, employ technical and soft skills, and so on. If you ask questions about work they’ve done in the course of their studies, you can easily assess to what level they have these essential core abilities. Grades are most definitely an indicator of ability especially in independent work and technical skills.

Im not saying you should focus only on grades. I’m saying that always favouring candidates with work experience” is discriminatory against graduates who cannot* study and work a job due to the extra effort and work it takes to obtain a degree caused by learning disabilities or graduates who being ND are wired to hyper focus on their passion/area of study to the exclusion of all else.

And let’s face it, most student jobs are not career related. So retail/hospitality/food service work isn’t going to create the core abilities you are looking for. It may be an arena where they can have some lovely anecdotes about how great their customer service is or how they helped their employer solve a really basic IT issue without being told to.

Im also not saying don’t take work experience into consideration. It’s a valid factor to consider.

But a blanket bias of always favouring graduates with work experience over those who do not have work experience is quite simply back door ableism.

white parents are less involved in their children's education

White kids more likely to come from single parent households/teenage pregnancies (nice way of saying white people are immoral breeders)

The problem is not that the government isn't helping white kids it's that the ethnic minorities are more involved in the education of their young.

This is racist.

I take issue with your opinion that there's been greater emphasis on minority races. But there has and is?
www.gov.uk/government/news/universities-must-do-more-to-tackle-ethnic-disparity

@Discovereads
Interesting but it's not like I throw CVs in the bin on the basis of not having work experience. More that if I have two good candidates, the one with work experience will have the edge because they've proven they can deal with the demands of a job (and sticking it out despite not necessarily enjoying it or being interested in it). Not liking the idea of getting a job/not being interested in anything beyond their studies or passions isn't a great indicator to me that they would be a good hire...

Personally I do think the hospitality industry does promote a lot of the skills I'm looking for - ability to deal with potentially demanding clients and being service oriented are great skills for my line of work. I struggle to think of any work experience which wouldn't have some transferable skills that I would be interested in.

Nonetheless, if a candidate can explain to me why they legitimately couldn't get any work experience during their 3 years of uni then I would factor that in (e.g. caring responsibilities).

There's other less competitive jobs out there for those who can't meet the requirements of what my company is looking for. We do have neurodiverse people working in my organisation and within my team so I don't think we are too far off the mark! However if someone had significant enough learning disabilities that meant they couldn't do the basic requirements of the job then we wouldn't be able to hire them for a data science role - I don't think that's discriminatory?

Not liking the idea of getting a job/not being interested in anything beyond their studies or passions isn't a great indicator to me that they would be a good hire...

You don’t get it. It’s not a choice. A dyslexic who’s putting in 110% on a degree and prioritising her primary job as a student isn’t getting a PT second job because “they don’t like the idea”. Similarly a student with ASD isn’t “not interested in anything beyond their studies” by choice, and why do you care about what extra interests someone may or may not have that are completely irrelevant to the job you are hiring for? It’s not a “great indicator” to you because you are biased against anyone who took a different path from the one you took. You are looking for younger versions of yourself.

Nonetheless, if a candidate can explain to me why they legitimately couldn't get any work experience during their 3 years of uni then I would factor that in (e.g. caring responsibilities). Why should they? Is work experience listed as an essential requirement in your job advert? If not, you shouldn’t be expecting any work experience as if it were an essential requirement.

However if someone had significant enough learning disabilities that meant they couldn't do the basic requirements of the job then we wouldn't be able to hire them for a data science role - I don't think that's discriminatory?

If they can’t do the job even with reasonable accommodation, then yes that’s not discriminatory. But you don’t seem to get that just because a learning disability means you cannot do TWO jobs at once (FT student plus PT job), that doesn’t mean they could not very successfully do the ONE job you are hiring for. And I’m even more concerned you didn’t even mention reasonable accommodations for those with disabilities. It’s a legal requirement. You can’t just eliminate someone because they might need accommodation to do the job.

I think your posts are based on your own experiences, because you didn’t manage to break the cycle, you think nobody can. When in fact people can and do.

You also dismiss education, but it was my only route out of the poverty trap I was born into, I would dread to think where I would be without it. But fortunately I took it, and I wasn’t unique or exceptional in doing that. You sound determined to feel aggrieved and down trodden,

You also dismiss education, but it was my only route out of the poverty trap I was born into, I would dread to think where I would be without it. But fortunately I took it, and I wasn’t unique or exceptional in doing that.

I agree with this. I understand that middle class kids have many advantages around their education but I still think it makes a big difference to your career prospects. Colleges that offer night classes so you can still have a full time job.

I appreciate that not everyone is academic enough to benefit from this. But plenty are. My sister and I are both accountants (thrilling I know). My company paid for me to study for three months a year and complete it in three years. My sister was kicked out of school after GCSEs, got herself a job and a rental room and spent years studying at night school and in the evenings to get her qualification, Hers was a far greater achievement than mine.

I don't think the OP's view is totally true actually. When I was at school it was University or work. Nothing else was offered. Now we have apprenticeships and various trade based courses. Its easier now than ever. That isn't to say its easy.

But you can't deny that the government have made it even harder for children coming from disadvantaged families/backgrounds. That is literally the whole point of the thread
Sounds like another government bashing thread. Let's absolve all responsibility and blame the government, much easier.

The government has introduced many routes for those from poorer background. My DD wanted to go on a programme that was exactly what he wanted to do, but despite going to a below average comprehensive school, he was turned down because I attended Uni.

It was a great programme aiming to encourage those with little home support to get into top engineering schools. They do the same for medicine. Requirements for entry lowered.

I agree with these programmes fully. It is desingenuous to say the government has done nothing. Ultimately though, parents gave to take responsibility for failing their kids.

I'm talking mostly statistically.

"because you didn’t manage to break the cycle, you think nobody can."
"You sound determined to feel aggrieved and down trodden"

No, I DID break the cycle, read the last paragraph in my op.
The point I'm making is that it was very easy for me to break the cycle of poverty and move from the "lower" working class (or "underclass" as some PP's have rudely referred to), to what would be considered middle class, with little to no education, qualifications, experience, etc.

My concern is that children from "lower" class families growing up today will now be trapped in the cycle.

I don't dismiss education at all, but as many PP's have mentioned, not every child is academic. Educational inequality also plays a massive factor in "lower" and working class children not succeeding academically, as does the "poverty mindset" throughout the childs community, etc etc. There are so many reasons as to why worse-off children don't/can't succeed academically. It's extremely ignorant to lay the blame on impoverished children.

@Aprilx

What makes you think you couldn’t do the same thing now?

I also think your assumption that all careers require a degree is flawed. You can enter the civil service without a degree and work your way up to any grade if you really want to. The tech industry is also increasingly focussed on aptitude rather than qualifications.

@vivainsomnia

So you completely disagree then that qualification and degree inflation are hampering social mobility for the lower working class? Delusional.

Yes there may be government "programmes", but these programmes are aimed at "the brightest" and "most intelligent" working class students, not the working class population as a whole 🙄

Yes there may be government "programmes", but these programmes are aimed at "the brightest" and "most intelligent" working class students, not the working class population as a whole

But that's surely a positive for those working class students who might not have those opportunities otherwise? There's not a one size fits all due to people's different aptitudes and skills.

Given the original premise was zero mobility, do these programmes not improve the odds of social mobility for these people?

Nonsense. There are lots of routes into careers. Being hard working and driven is key.

Certainly once you have experience that counts for more than a degree in the majority of roles which don't specifically require them such as medicine etc.

Spot on, doing away with the Grammar schools to satisfy the political will of a socialist government most of whom were grammar school or public school educated and had been to university, was the single most retrograde step ever. I know that the teachers of today will chant the 'facts' that they were filled with middle class children etc, I get that all the time from son-in-law who can never be wrong, but those of us who benefitted from them know differently,

@lot123

You are aware these uni programmes don't take on EVERY SINGLE child from a lower socio-economic background? They take on a very small minority of that population, which still leaves the majority of the population behind. What's not clicking?

You've also completely blanked the crucial argument I made in the first paragraph:

So you completely disagree then that qualification and degree inflation are hampering social mobility for the lower working class?

It's not snobbery to aspire for social mobility. Being "middle class" opens up so many doors and opportunities for people and their future generations, suggesting otherwise is extremely ignorant and privileged
You seem to confuse class with income. OH and I are middle class professionals, home owners, good earners, but nowhere near many of our working class friends who work in the trade industry, don't have degrees but had excellent business acumen and not risk adverse. Good on them!

So you completely disagree then that qualification and degree inflation are hampering social mobility for the lower working class? Delusional
Yep, absolutely. I have one extremely academic child who is making their career in a niche, academic area and will likely earn good money after getting a PhD. The other isn't, is doing an apprentiship but is money driven, more than the elder, and I am confident will do very well in their field.

Yes there may be government "programmes", but these programmes are aimed at "the brightest" and "most intelligent" working class students, not the working class population as a whole
Well I'm sure you'd rather have an very intelligent surgeon, or air traffic controller being in charge of your survival. Of course those with higher intelligence are more likely to take on jobs with higher risks and therefore higher paid. Many not so I intelligent people admit themselves they wouldn't be able to cope with those jobs and would hate them.

I think a lot of posters are confusing working class with the disadvantaged or neglectful. I came from a working class background and was the first of 4 to go to uni. The key was that whilst my parents couldn't help listen to me read, help me with homework or finding a part time job or work experience they encouraged me to work hard at school because it would give me more opportunities and it has. I shared a room with my sister, I helped take care of my younger siblings, I did chores around the house from the age of 8 so had many of the features a pp would consider disadvantaged me as a child. I think a big part of how well children go on to do job wise is down to how motivated and hardworking they are but also how much parental encouragement they get. You could be the most gifted child in your year group but if you don't turn up to school aren't going to pass the exams needed to get you a higher paid job, even if you did enter a trade you still need to be motivated to turn up on time and do the training needed as they are skilled jobs.

I agree with the op in that many entry level jobs have higher requirements than previously and that can often push kids from a more disadvantaged background out. My uncle was the second kid of 7 to go to uni. He works for a pharmaceutical company and was able to get his kjob with a 2.1 from a poly, he has worked his way up and has a very senior position now and earns very well. Previously he interviewed people for the same role he started with and there were phD candidates applying and he commented that he himself wouldn't have got a look in now and was glad he joined when he did. That is the level of competition being faced now. They do have some roles for which an apprenticeship is a route in but he said it tends to be middle class kids apply as it's their parents helping them to research the opportunities.

@vivainsomnia

"Well I'm sure you'd rather have an very intelligent surgeon, or air traffic controller being in charge of your survival. Of course those with higher intelligence are more likely to take on jobs with higher risks and therefore higher paid."
I'm not talking about surgeons and air traffic controllers, am I? I'm very aware that medicine, engineering, etc have always required degrees and high intelligence - I stated that in my OP. I'm talking about jobs that previously only required basic O levels now requiring degrees and A levels.

It's not exactly hard to see how this closes off many career options to children from lower socio-economic backgrounds who have less educational privilege.

"but nowhere near many of our working class friends who work in the trade industry,"

You keep mentioning trade jobs, but trades are commonly associated with the working class, aren't they? So how exactly does this help social mobility from one class to another?

As a PP astutely mentioned, trades are also very male dominated.

"Of all skilled trades professionals working in the UK construction sector – such as joiners, bricklayers, electricians, plumbers, and carpenters – just 1 per cent are currently women, according to the latest ONS figures. That represents just a 0.7 per cent increase during the last decade"

So how is this at all helpful in any way for less academic, working class women?

"Yep, absolutely. I have one extremely academic child who is making their career in a niche, academic area and will likely earn good money after getting a PhD. The other isn't, is doing an apprentiship but is money driven, more than the elder, and I am confident will do very well in their field."

"OH and I are middle class professionals, home owners, good earners"

You're disagreeing because your middle class children are doing PHD's and apprenticeships. They're not from lower socio-economic backgrounds then, are they? What a ridiculously stupid thing to say - I'm genuinely laughing.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210126-degree-inflation-how-the-four-year-degree-became-required

"This focus on degrees creates exclusionary conditions, the “worst-case scenario” of which, says Ray Bachan, a senior lecturer at the University of Brighton’s Business School, “is a lack of intergenerational mobility. It all has social connotations”. Less affluent parents are less likely to have children who go to college, he explains. And when those children struggle to find jobs, the result is a generation failing to be more successful than the one before it.
Crucially, degree inflation has a significant impact on populations that are less likely to graduate from a four-year programme."

I'm quite clearly not wrong on the point of academic inflation hampering social mobility for the lower working class (and the less academic working class as a whole). To argue against this is just ridiculously ignorant and laughable.

I think a lot of posters are confusing working class with the disadvantaged or neglectful.
I agree.
It is downright insulting.
I'm WC.
I've never been out of work nor has any of my family recessions aside. I treat my DC, my family, neighbours and friends with respect.

Most people who aren't impacted by drug or alcohol abuse are happily working away, paying bills, raising a family.

I do feel more needs to be done to support children that are trapped in situations where they feel there is no hope.

My siblings done well, Dsis went back to study accountancy, Dbro qualified as a builder though the next generation of our family will all go in to third level education if they wish too, the older teenagers are in university.

I have been saving €5 euro weekly for years.

@frozenlakes You sound very angry, I'm not sure why you're being so defensive about your opinion. This is an important topic and a discussion would be great but you're just attacking other opinions even going so far as using words like "so stupid". Your responses read more like attacks.

What was your aim of starting this post? To just reiterate your own opinion and slam any other opposing views or to start a discourse that can hopefully bring about change.

I for one, think that the responsibility begins at home. Parents working class or not, have the responsibility to create an aspirational home environment. If they aren't in the position to do so well, we hope that these children have friends/other relatives or even teachers to help them. Or better yet maybe if this is a cause that you believe in why not start volunteer groups to help tutor or speak to underprivileged children. I used to mentor girls from lower income households and I think in a small way it helps them to have an older person guide them. Are you involved in any such initiatives? Might be better than just attacking everyone else's opinions and insisting on government intervention.

Another thing to consider is the internet! It's created quite a few young entrepreneurs from lower income households and I think that's brilliant! Recently read an article on a young man who started a catering business in his mother's council flat and now owns a restaurant. He was so determined I found it very inspiring. His family came from Nigeria I believe and he worked hard to start a new life.

I wish everything in life was equal but it's not. Best way to overcome is not depending on the government (since when has any government in the world displayed magnanimity) and creating an aspirational home environment or bringing about change in your own community.

@littlebitmermaid I'm not arguing against all opinions on here at all. There's a huge variety of posts and opinions on here.

The posters I'm responding to specifically are the extremely middle class, privileged posters who are writing off children from disadvantaged, deprived backgrounds as "benefits britain" and "the underclass", and laying the blame of poverty on them for not "working hard" enough.

I’m not sure social mobility matters in a sense that I don’t think it really matters if you do well in trade vs doing well in a profession as long as you are happy. It is a problem if you wanted to be a doctor, academic, museum curator, but your parents and school said it’s a waste of time, you should do carpentry.

it is also a problem if you only know of a few jobs which are open to you and dislike them and don’t how to get a promotion. Eg someone who likes the outdoors but the main town employer is a call center or supermarket. Maybe gardening or working with horses may be good - but maybe your area doesn’t have a garden center or stables. Having a website or mentor to help give u ideas and options might be useful.