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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think social mobility for working class children is now impossible?

302 replies

frozenlakes · 08/08/2022 20:42

When I was growing up even people from the most deprived backgrounds could still better themselves despite their limitations.

Except the concept of "working your way up the ladder" just doesn't seem to exist anymore?

Every career route now seems to require at least a degree. I remember the time when there was little to no emphasis on qualifications or degrees, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer.
Dead-end administration jobs are being disguised as "entry level" positions and yet still require at least 5 GCSES and A levels.
It seems like if you don't have a degree you're stuck in low paid jobs with little opportunity for progression.

But then there's so much emphasis on Russell Group unis, which are statistically even more unrealistic for disadvantaged kids to get in to.

When it comes to owning property even young people from good socio-economic backgrounds will never get on the housing ladder, but at least they will most likely inherit a property. Working class kids wont.

I come from a "deprived" background - grew up on a council estate, left school at 16 with no qualifications, etc. But by the time I was 23 I'd "worked my way up" to a decent, well paid job (which now you'd need a degree for!) and had a mortgage. It scares me to think how different things would be for me if I was growing up in this day and age.

OP posts:
berksandbeyond · 09/08/2022 10:51

@AlexandriasWindmill I didn't say staying in the same area meant they stagnated.. I said these people I was referring to left school with very little qualifications, and followed their parents paths of no education, low paid jobs (if they work) and council houses. There was no social mobility. It will be difficult for their children to break out of that generational curse, not impossible; but definitely more difficult and unlikely for them to become a lawyer or a doctor, or even just a homeowner, than it will be for some of their peers.

EmeraldShamrock1 · 09/08/2022 11:01

Not everyone wants to be degree educated.

A lot of qualified tradesmen out earn those who are degree educated, there are no student loans to clear, they're earning while they're training.

Some people are happy on a normal wage they stick to their budget and enjoy life.

My Dbro was a millionaire at 40 working as a builder, opening his own company at 45.

His friends are all financially secure through trade work.

fyn · 09/08/2022 11:02

@bringonthesunshinefinally do you not think that’s hugely patronising to the many working class people who have worked hard on their own merit and achieved well. I was ‘rewarded’ with a salary of £50,000 by 25 from my own hard work.

I worked hard at school, then worked hard at my apprenticeship, then worked hard at uni whilst working two jobs to support myself. My hard work was clearly acknowledged as I had a great grad scheme in place well before I graduated. Surely people from working class backgrounds can talk for themselves using their own lived experiences, they don’t need people to talk for them and tell them they are wrong.

Discovereads · 09/08/2022 11:06

ComtesseDeSpair · 09/08/2022 10:14

In fairness OP, you started out using the term “working class” and only later clarified that you were using it as a synonym for poverty, neglect and drug addiction. That’s confused the thread somewhat, because it isn’t what most people understand of being working class. According to the ONS, 61% of the UK population self identifies as working class - they clearly aren’t all the impoverished dregs, and they will have entirely different experiences, including that of being able to progress.

I think the OP was very clear as this thread is about social mobility which by definition means moving from one class to another. The fact that 61% of Britons identify as working class, were born working class and will die working class proves the OPs point that social mobility is nigh impossible. Progression within working class from poverty to managing isn’t social mobility.

gogohmm · 09/08/2022 11:07

Plenty of kids from working class homes do well at school and go to university - often they are better off than those in the middle as they get full loans. You do need to study though, even apprenticeships involve a lot of study these days. School is free so I don't understand why anyone of normal intelligence won't get qualifications.

gogohmm · 09/08/2022 11:09

@Userg1234

Rubbish I went to comp and worked my way up. Grammars caused more problems because so many were thrown on the scrap heap at 11.

We are now in cat a, elite or whatever sociologists call it these days from very much working class.

gogohmm · 09/08/2022 11:12

@frozenlakes

Working your way up from a council isn't an exception though - I know so many people personally not just my exh. It's actually most of my cohort. We are comp educated in what would now be called failing schools but worked despite out parents not attending parents evening nor having anywhere to study

Discovereads · 09/08/2022 11:14

fyn · 09/08/2022 11:02

@bringonthesunshinefinally do you not think that’s hugely patronising to the many working class people who have worked hard on their own merit and achieved well. I was ‘rewarded’ with a salary of £50,000 by 25 from my own hard work.

I worked hard at school, then worked hard at my apprenticeship, then worked hard at uni whilst working two jobs to support myself. My hard work was clearly acknowledged as I had a great grad scheme in place well before I graduated. Surely people from working class backgrounds can talk for themselves using their own lived experiences, they don’t need people to talk for them and tell them they are wrong.

The problem is that it’s never down to just hard work.
Why Luck Matters More Than You Might Think
When people see themselves as self-made, they tend to be less generous and public-spirited.
By Robert H. Frank
Edmon de Haro
MAY 2016 ISSUE Atlantic

”According to the Pew Research Center, people in higher income brackets are much more likely than those with lower incomes to say that individuals get rich primarily because they work hard. Other surveys bear this out: Wealthy people overwhelmingly attribute their own success to hard work rather than to factors like luck or being in the right place at the right time.

That’s troubling, because a growing body of evidence suggests that seeing ourselves as self-made—rather than as talented, hardworking, and lucky—leads us to be less generous and public-spirited. It may even make the lucky less likely to support the conditions (such as high-quality public infrastructure and education) that made their own success possible.”

Psychologists use the term hindsight bias to describe our tendency to think, after the fact, that an event was predictable even when it wasn’t. This bias operates with particular force for unusually successful outcomes.

In his commencement address to Princeton University’s 2012 graduating class, Michael Lewis described the series of chance events that helped make him—already privileged by virtue of his birth into a well-heeled family and his education at Princeton—a celebrated author:

One night I was invited to a dinner where I sat next to the wife of a big shot of a big Wall Street investment bank, Salomon Brothers. She more or less forced her husband to give me a job. I knew next to nothing about Salomon Brothers. But Salomon Brothers happened to be where Wall Street was being reinvented—into the Wall Street we’ve come to know and love today. When I got there I was assigned, almost arbitrarily, to the very best job in the place to observe the growing madness: They turned me into the house derivatives expert.

On the basis of his experiences at Salomon, Lewis wrote his 1989 best seller, Liar’s Poker, which described how Wall Street financial maneuvering was transforming the world.

All of a sudden people were telling me I was a born writer. This was absurd. Even I could see that there was another, more true narrative, with luck as its theme. What were the odds of being seated at that dinner next to that Salomon Brothers lady? Of landing inside the best Wall Street firm to write the story of the age? Of landing in the seat with the best view of the business? … This isn’t just false humility. It’s false humility with a point. My case illustrates how success is always rationalized. People really don’t like to hear success explained away as luck—especially successful people. As they age, and succeed, people feel their success was somehow inevitable.

Our understanding of human cognition provides one important clue as to why we may see success as inevitable: the availability heuristic. Using this cognitive shortcut, we tend to estimate the likelihood of an event or outcome based on how readily we can recall similar instances. Successful careers, of course, result from many factors, including hard work, talent, and chance. Some of those factors recur often, making them easy to recall. But others happen sporadically and therefore get short shrift when we construct our life stories.

Little wonder that when talented, hardworking people in developed countries strike it rich, they tend to ascribe their success to talent and hard work above all else. Most of them are vividly aware of how hard they’ve worked and how talented they are. They’ve been working hard and solving difficult problems every day for many years! In some abstract sense, they probably do know that they might not have performed as well in some other environment. Yet their day-to-day experience provides few reminders of how fortunate they were not to have been born in, say, war-torn Zimbabwe.”

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 11:16

gogohmm · 09/08/2022 11:12

@frozenlakes

Working your way up from a council isn't an exception though - I know so many people personally not just my exh. It's actually most of my cohort. We are comp educated in what would now be called failing schools but worked despite out parents not attending parents evening nor having anywhere to study

RTFT. It is an exception because I'm talking statistics wise not how Jane's son from down the road performed in his SATs.

OP posts:
Aprilx · 09/08/2022 11:32

frozenlakes · 08/08/2022 21:08

@MidnightMeltdown That's good for you but I hope you understand that you're the exception.

I wouldn’t say it was an exception at all. I am from a very deprived background, grew up in Oldham to parents who left school at ages 13 and 14, they struggled financially their whole adult lives.

I went to University, didn’t get a first like MidnightMeltdown, but I got a 2:1 and went on to have a very good career as a chartered accountant. I knew that for me education was the key to breaking the poverty cycle so I made sure I did. Student loans were introduced during my years at university and it was an absolute blessing, I don’t think I could have carried on without access to some borrowing of funds. I left with debt that was paid back a long time ago, yes some people were a lot luckier than me and left without debt but that is life, I still had the opportunity. I don’t see how going to university is harder now, more people are going than ever so it can’t be can it? The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

I am grateful that I live in a country where I could access education. There were plenty of other working class students at university when I was there and even more these days.

ComtesseDeSpair · 09/08/2022 11:34

Discovereads · 09/08/2022 11:06

I think the OP was very clear as this thread is about social mobility which by definition means moving from one class to another. The fact that 61% of Britons identify as working class, were born working class and will die working class proves the OPs point that social mobility is nigh impossible. Progression within working class from poverty to managing isn’t social mobility.

Outside of MN, where everyone is desperate to be middle class and highlight the class markers which prove they are, working class is not a slur and it isn’t a synonym for poor and underprivileged. People identify themselves as working class because they feel it represents their background and their values, the sort of lifestyle they aspire to, and what they want from their lives. Not everyone wants to be middle class - which as most MNers will hurry to tell you is nothing to do with income or assets anyway, David Beckham will apparently always be working class despite being very wealthy. Most of that 61% will be absolutely content with calling themselves working class, and will be doing very well for themselves.

That isn’t to say we have no problem at all with social mobility in the UK, but saying that because we still have working class people that shows there’s no social mobility is incorrect.

Discovereads · 09/08/2022 11:40

@ComtesseDeSpair
That isn’t to say we have no problem at all with social mobility in the UK, but saying that because we still have working class people that shows there’s no social mobility is incorrect.

”no social mobility” isn’t the same as saying “nigh impossible”
and it is true that if you have a majority of people born working class and despite all the progress they make, they still die working class that does in fact show that social mobility is the rare exception, not the rule.

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 11:43

Discovereads · 09/08/2022 11:40

@ComtesseDeSpair
That isn’t to say we have no problem at all with social mobility in the UK, but saying that because we still have working class people that shows there’s no social mobility is incorrect.

”no social mobility” isn’t the same as saying “nigh impossible”
and it is true that if you have a majority of people born working class and despite all the progress they make, they still die working class that does in fact show that social mobility is the rare exception, not the rule.

"social mobility is the rare exception, not the rule"

This is exactly what I've been saying for 8 pages on this thread, however people still seem to be getting caught up in their own personal experiences and their survivor bias.

OP posts:
ComtesseDeSpair · 09/08/2022 11:46

Discovereads · 09/08/2022 11:40

@ComtesseDeSpair
That isn’t to say we have no problem at all with social mobility in the UK, but saying that because we still have working class people that shows there’s no social mobility is incorrect.

”no social mobility” isn’t the same as saying “nigh impossible”
and it is true that if you have a majority of people born working class and despite all the progress they make, they still die working class that does in fact show that social mobility is the rare exception, not the rule.

But that still makes the assumption that social mobility simply means changing the class you identify as, and it doesn’t. Social mobility can mean increasing your income and earning power in comparison to that of your parents and grandparents, or managing the family plumbing business rather than just working for it. In both of those examples, the resultant individuals may well still define themselves as working class; but it would be incorrect to say they haven’t progressed or that they haven’t been upwardly mobile.

basilmint · 09/08/2022 11:50

A lot of people on threads like these always post from their own personal experiences which are usually at least a decade ago, often more. Things have changed and a lot more jobs, certainly office-based, require a degree.

I teach primary and we follow what happens to.many of our pupils as they move on. You can pick out from a young age which children are most likely to go to university and it's generally to do with parental circumstances and expectations.

fyn · 09/08/2022 11:56

@Discovereads we aren’t comparing people born in war torn countries to people in this country. We are talking about people in this country. I am very aware that people, however bright, born into refugee camps don’t have the same opportunities. I am acutely aware how lucky we are to be born in this country.

x2boys · 09/08/2022 11:57

basilmint · 09/08/2022 11:50

A lot of people on threads like these always post from their own personal experiences which are usually at least a decade ago, often more. Things have changed and a lot more jobs, certainly office-based, require a degree.

I teach primary and we follow what happens to.many of our pupils as they move on. You can pick out from a young age which children are most likely to go to university and it's generally to do with parental circumstances and expectations.

Bull shit ,I care a hell of lot about my child's education and help and encourage in whatever way I can but he won't be going to university because he doesn't have the academic ability, it would be detrimental to both him and me to have unrealistic expectations for him.

Namenic · 09/08/2022 11:57

I think many people will agree that supportive family (who can be working class or in financial poverty) makes a big difference in people’s likelihood of getting a good salary.

unsupportive families (who can also be rich, dysfunctional, neglectful) can have a big negative impact by not giving their kids knowledge of the different options open to them and help in achieving goals (eg make sure they go to school, make sure they get the healthcare/learning support they need). The big question is - how can we help these people with unsupportive families (especially those who also have to deal with poverty, homelessness, unplanned parenthood)?

bigger advertisement of free functional skills classes would be good. There are skills shortages so companies should show how they can help employees progress - eg cleaner to cleaning manager. What additional skills could benefit people after that initial promotion? Perhaps they could look at site management qualifications (eg facilities in a public building)? I think sometimes it’s hard to know what jobs are out there to take that next step on the career ladder. Maybe the govt/citizen’s advice developing a website to share people’s experiences and ideas might help.

Housing and childcare are huge issues - especially for women with no supporting family. Better publicised routes where they can get help applying for all the benefits they are entitled to.

Soonberaining · 09/08/2022 12:00

I've worked in a Grammar School. I can assure you that we had children from very deprived backgrounds. They were just as deprived as the children I taught in one of the poorest areas in the country.

Children who do well academically can do anything, despite a hard childhood.

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 12:03

Soonberaining · 09/08/2022 12:00

I've worked in a Grammar School. I can assure you that we had children from very deprived backgrounds. They were just as deprived as the children I taught in one of the poorest areas in the country.

Children who do well academically can do anything, despite a hard childhood.

Only 2.6% of grammar school students are from poor backgrounds. Majority go to under-performing state schools.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/oct/15/very-small-percentage-of-grammar-school-pupils-from-poorer-families-new-statistics-show

OP posts:
Discovereads · 09/08/2022 12:07

fyn · 09/08/2022 11:56

@Discovereads we aren’t comparing people born in war torn countries to people in this country. We are talking about people in this country. I am very aware that people, however bright, born into refugee camps don’t have the same opportunities. I am acutely aware how lucky we are to be born in this country.

You’ve entirely missed the point of the Pew Research by focussing on one throw away comment in the entire article.

Dalaidramailama · 09/08/2022 12:10

It isn’t impossible but it is hard, certainly more barriers.

I grew up on a council estate in a council house. Now I’m also living the same life with my 3 kids.

I left school with zero qualifications because no one really cared in my family if you got GCSEs or not. My eldest siblings also left with zero qualifications.

I had 3 kids at a young age and settled down with my husband (few bumps along the way house wise hence the long wait for my council house).

In my mid to late 20s I started thinking about my life and where I was heading etc so I embarked on an OU degree. Managed to get a first without too much effort so I realised that I probably did have quite a lot of potential. I’m 34 now and I am still in a low paid position. I’ve given up trying to bust a gut to climb something that does feel a little unobtainable now.

Truth is I’m not that ambitious overall and I’m really happy with my lot. I have a wonderful husband so it is what it is now. If I climb I climb and if I don’t I don’t. I will however encourage my kids to follow their dreams and have reasonably high expectations, but I won’t oversell them the dream.

Discovereads · 09/08/2022 12:11

ComtesseDeSpair · 09/08/2022 11:46

But that still makes the assumption that social mobility simply means changing the class you identify as, and it doesn’t. Social mobility can mean increasing your income and earning power in comparison to that of your parents and grandparents, or managing the family plumbing business rather than just working for it. In both of those examples, the resultant individuals may well still define themselves as working class; but it would be incorrect to say they haven’t progressed or that they haven’t been upwardly mobile.

The context of the OP is social mobility between classes, not within the same class. Otherwise the OP saying social mobility is “nigh impossible” makes no sense at all. That’s my point, that people are misunderstanding the OP to be referring to social mobility within a class when they’re actually referring to social mobility between the classes.

SleeplessInEngland · 09/08/2022 12:11

It's kind of insane that if you're a millenial then you became an adult in the wake of the 2008 market crash, insane property prices, years of austerity, covid, and now another recession.

The backdrop to your entire adult life has been a non-stop economic disaster. And it might go on for another decade.

Discovereads · 09/08/2022 12:15

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 11:43

"social mobility is the rare exception, not the rule"

This is exactly what I've been saying for 8 pages on this thread, however people still seem to be getting caught up in their own personal experiences and their survivor bias.

Yes they are also confusing social mobility within a class with the social mobility you were referring to which is social mobility between the classes.

It’s a given that as most people mature & work, they are going to make progress of a kind. So we are getting all these success stories of I’m alright Jack because I grafted. But thats not what is “nigh impossible” what’s “nigh impossible” is for working class to move up to middle or upper class.