Page 7 | AIBU to think social mobility for working class children is now impossible?

frozenlakes · 2022-08-08T19:42:01+00:00

When I was growing up even people from the most deprived backgrounds could still better themselves despite their limitations. Except the concept of "working your way up the ladder" just doesn't seem to exist anymore? Every career route now seems to require at least a degree. I remember the time when there was little to no emphasis on qualifications or degrees, unless you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer. Dead-end administration jobs are being disguised as "entry level" positions and yet still require at least 5 GCSES and A levels. It seems like if you don't have a degree you're stuck in low paid jobs with little opportunity for progression. But then there's so much emphasis on Russell Group unis, which are statistically *even more* unrealistic for disadvantaged kids to get in to. When it comes to owning property even young people from *good *socio-economic backgrounds will never get on the housing ladder, but at least they will most likely inherit a property. Working class kids wont. I come from a "deprived" background - grew up on a council estate, left school at 16 with no qualifications, etc. But by the time I was 23 I'd "worked my way up" to a decent, well paid job (which now you'd need a degree for!) and had a mortgage. It scares me to think how different things would be for me if I was growing up in this day and age.

georgarina · 09/08/2022 03:36

Eunorition · 08/08/2022 20:47

There is still mobility if they work hard in school. That is key. They can be working class, but there's no excuse for not getting 5 GCSEs and A Levels. They don't cost anything.

If they don't want to go to uni, fine, there are routes into work without it, but they'll have to do the research and find those access courses, internships and training schemes. Again, the rewards come to those who put the work in.

I was involved in tech courses getting people into roles without degrees. It was still overwhelmingly middle class. We had some working class students, and they were great and committed, but they did all share similar stories that their families had offered no help, guidance or support at all. They didn't know how. So they have to be very self driven and motivated to get out of the rut on their own.

No one's going to inherit property from the middle class. It gets sold to pay for care fees.

Doesn't matter how hard you work in school if your school is underfunded and inadequate and you aren't supported at home.

I grew up going to a shit local school where (at 14) they just popped videos on for us and gave us 1-page question sheets to fill in (ie. 'Who is William Shakespeare?'). Classes were huge and I don't remember any 1-on-1 interaction with any of my teachers. And at home I was just told how stupid I was, so definitely no support there.

I moved to a private school the next year after moving in with my other parent, and was getting C-D grades. By the time I graduated two years later I was getting A*'s and scored in the 98th percentile on my verbal SATs.

That wasn't due to any change in my academic potential, it was just a seismic shift in home life and quality of teaching.

So it's not actually that straightforward.

berksandbeyond · 09/08/2022 06:15

No, you're right.
It's hard and it's not a level playing field for kids born nowadays.
Dare to suggest that perhaps someone should wait until they are in a better situation to have children and you get shot down that 'oh so you're saying only the rich should have kids'. No i'm saying it would be nice if those kids have some prospects. Sometimes 'love' isn't enough.

berksandbeyond · 09/08/2022 06:18

I think if your parents (and their parents) left school at 16 and got a job (or in some cases didn't), took the first council house offered in the same socially economically deprived village they grew up in, and stagnated there for the rest of their lives in poverty, the chances of those children achieving a higher standard of lifestyle? A lot smaller than it should be

Original poster

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 08:48

Namenic · 09/08/2022 00:24

I think the problem with this thread is the broadness of the term working class - which OP has clarified in subsequent posts. I think what OP means is that if your family (by no means all wc families) don’t care about education and actively discourage you when you are young - there are fewer ways now of self improvement (than previously). This is due to lots of things requiring gcses, a levels and degrees.

I think what OP is saying is that by getting entry level jobs where you can mix with people with qualifications, you can be more aware of the options open to you (that your family didn’t tell you about) - so you get better ideas about how to improve your situation. But some of these entry level jobs don’t exist anymore because they are now graduate jobs or require a levels.

I kind of agree. There has been massive inflation in qualifications - and in many cases it’s just a giant protracted selection process. Companies want the ‘brightest’, so they assume that those who have the best results from best unis are it (even if the entry level job itself doesn’t require it). Training on the job still needs to happen though - so it is a bit of a waste.

On the positive side - I would say perhaps the internet is a big bonus nowadays - there are free resources, YouTube videos, information available. You can search for where to get functional skills qualifications, find our average salaries in different careers (some non degree routes can also be well paid - construction, plumbing, some hgv driving). Some jobs like retail, hospitality and warehousing also have management jobs that people can aspire to. Ok - maybe it would be hard to reach 6-figs from here, but the additional earnings and experience can help the next generation.

@Namenic
Yep! You've understood perfectly. Very well worded post.

OP posts:

Original poster

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 08:58

Phos · 08/08/2022 21:28

I actually think there are more opportunities. Maybe its the school I went to but when I was 18 it was university or bust. There are so many alternatives now, like apprenticeships, and they are in loads of fields not just construction and hairdressing as it used to be.

And what if they're not academically minded (I'm certainly not), then they will never achieve the fantastic GCSE and A level results needed for higher courses and apprenticeships, let alone university degrees.

The reality is, statistics show most working class children perform poorly in school compared to their middle class counterparts, due to education inequality and many other factors.

Does that mean they deserve to be stuck in low-paid, low-level jobs with minimum opportunity for progression forever? It's just unfathomable.

OP posts:

Adversity · 09/08/2022 09:07

I agree with your post, I worked in two RG Universities first in a vocational subject and then in a subject that has no clear career path. I was an academic librarian by trade but did end up as an admissions officer when DH and I relocated. Library posts have always been like rocking horse shit.

My friend was the manager of the research office at one of these very desirable institutions, she had O levels. She would not have got ajob as a secretary in that office by the time she retired last year. The last person recruited to her office as a secretary had a Masters level qualification.

I retired early through ill health. By the time I left I felt I was lying to the potential
Students on open days. Yes those career options were feasible but in truth paid internships had come to the fore and you better have rich parents who can sub you and contacts.

One came back one year and had spent the summer working at the UN because her Aunt worked there.

I cannot even begin to tell you how messed up the HE sector is now. DH is head of a dept but of a science subject with a clear vocational path, no lies needed there. Blair was the root of all the evil, yes I know Tories bad but it’s more complicated than that.

CuriousCatfish · 09/08/2022 09:12

You don't need fantastic exam results to do all apprenticeships or go on to do vocational subjects at college. Functional skills are included in all of them as part of the course.

x2boys · 09/08/2022 09:16

Eunorition · 08/08/2022 23:32

@frozenlakes I don't think being working class automatically means you have a crap, unsupportive family or poverty. My parents were a builder and a shop worker. We were poor but they did their best. They valued education. We went to uni.

You can be working class and still be supportive parents who value education. If people are unsupportive and their kids leave school with nothing, that's not class, that's their attitude.

You are still not getting it and neither are all the I grew up on a council estate and got eleventy billion ,Top Alevels and graduated from Oxford with a double first etc posters
Some kids are just not academic my son is one of them ,he goes to a fairly decent comprehensive school I encourage him and value education, and he works hard ,he's going into year 11 in September I'm hoping and praying he gets a few grade fours.at least in English and maths.

Discovereads · 09/08/2022 09:43

CuriousCatfish · 09/08/2022 09:12

You don't need fantastic exam results to do all apprenticeships or go on to do vocational subjects at college. Functional skills are included in all of them as part of the course.

So long as you can afford the transportation costs to get to said college/apprenticeship and your family can get by with less than FT NMW wages coming in from you.

Damnautocorrect · 09/08/2022 09:54

Discovereads · 09/08/2022 09:43

So long as you can afford the transportation costs to get to said college/apprenticeship and your family can get by with less than FT NMW wages coming in from you.

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And you have someone who can open your eyes to what’s out there.

fyn · 09/08/2022 09:55

I think maybe you need to change the title, you don’t mean working class at all. You mean children raised by neglectful parents? I ran a community project yesterday and there were 6/7 year olds out on their own, their parents didn’t know where they were. A few hours later an older sibling came looking for them but they’d left at that point. I did think at the time, realistically they have no chance.

I was born to teenage working class parents but I don’t think you’d know that now. My dad was born in the most deprived area in the country to an alcoholic father, he did incredibly well to go to grammar school and became an electrician. I graduated university about 6 years ago and work a very ‘middle class’ job until I gave it up to have children. I don’t necessarily think you’d know that I was born to working class teenage parents.

I do see however, it’s unlikely I’ll ever earn as much as my father does or live the lifestyle he does, all funded by his working class job.

georgarina · 09/08/2022 09:57

Just adding to my comment above though, my career is in a field where you don't need a degree at all, and it's very high paying once you move up a bit. My aunt is in a different field that is the same, she just needed a Btec and then moved up into a very high paying job. So there are options, but many people don't know about them.

ComtesseDeSpair · 09/08/2022 09:58

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 08:58

And what if they're not academically minded (I'm certainly not), then they will never achieve the fantastic GCSE and A level results needed for higher courses and apprenticeships, let alone university degrees.

The reality is, statistics show most working class children perform poorly in school compared to their middle class counterparts, due to education inequality and many other factors.

Does that mean they deserve to be stuck in low-paid, low-level jobs with minimum opportunity for progression forever? It's just unfathomable.

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I think a significant aspect of the issue is that our economy has lost most of the sorts of jobs that didn’t require somebody to be academic or have qualifications or even be able to read or write very well or be well spoken or be able to think outside the box. We have fewer factories, fewer warehouses, virtually no dockyards, no coal mines. Those were the sorts of jobs that the majority of working class boys went to, and if they were hard workers they’d be promoted to foreman or shift manager etc. And the service industry jobs which have replaced them, in retail, hospitality, call centres and so on, do require employees to be literate and numerate and good at customer service and able to speak well and have good social skills. So the same sorts of boys a few decades on are stuck.

Icedbannoffee · 09/08/2022 10:00

frozenlakes · 08/08/2022 21:08

@MidnightMeltdown That's good for you but I hope you understand that you're the exception.

How have you concluded this? Plenty of people on the estate I grew up on went to university or took courses/apprentiships in vocational trades which has set them up nicely. I was the first in my extended family to go to university, I grew up in poverty and with many disruptions to my schooling. There are lots of us we just don't let it define us.

Icedbannoffee · 09/08/2022 10:03

ComtesseDeSpair · 09/08/2022 09:58

I think a significant aspect of the issue is that our economy has lost most of the sorts of jobs that didn’t require somebody to be academic or have qualifications or even be able to read or write very well or be well spoken or be able to think outside the box. We have fewer factories, fewer warehouses, virtually no dockyards, no coal mines. Those were the sorts of jobs that the majority of working class boys went to, and if they were hard workers they’d be promoted to foreman or shift manager etc. And the service industry jobs which have replaced them, in retail, hospitality, call centres and so on, do require employees to be literate and numerate and good at customer service and able to speak well and have good social skills. So the same sorts of boys a few decades on are stuck.

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Plenty of jobs in construction. No quals needed, good wages when you progress. The reality is that it's hard, manual labour where you're out in all weathers- lots of young people don't want to do it. But they also don't want to apply themselves to progress up a different path.

x2boys · 09/08/2022 10:04

fyn · 09/08/2022 09:55

I think maybe you need to change the title, you don’t mean working class at all. You mean children raised by neglectful parents? I ran a community project yesterday and there were 6/7 year olds out on their own, their parents didn’t know where they were. A few hours later an older sibling came looking for them but they’d left at that point. I did think at the time, realistically they have no chance.

I was born to teenage working class parents but I don’t think you’d know that now. My dad was born in the most deprived area in the country to an alcoholic father, he did incredibly well to go to grammar school and became an electrician. I graduated university about 6 years ago and work a very ‘middle class’ job until I gave it up to have children. I don’t necessarily think you’d know that I was born to working class teenage parents.

I do see however, it’s unlikely I’ll ever earn as much as my father does or live the lifestyle he does, all funded by his working class job.

But both you and your Dad were clearly very able academically
My son isn't neglected he's 15 and I worried about him going into town yesterday
But he's never going to achieve fantastic results no matter how hard he works, it doesn't mean we should be writing kids off at 16 because, they don't do well In their exams .

Original poster

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 10:05

Icedbannoffee · 09/08/2022 10:00

How have you concluded this? Plenty of people on the estate I grew up on went to university or took courses/apprentiships in vocational trades which has set them up nicely. I was the first in my extended family to go to university, I grew up in poverty and with many disruptions to my schooling. There are lots of us we just don't let it define us.

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Statistics. Statistics show most working class children don't get within an arses roar of university, due to education inequality etc. Plenty also don't achieve the brilliant GCSE's and A levels needed for good apprenticeships and vocational trades these days.

Also, the estate you grew up on sounds very different to mine. A lot of people on here seem to be going off of "personal experience" rather than actual facts and statistics.

OP posts:

ComtesseDeSpair · 09/08/2022 10:09

Icedbannoffee · 09/08/2022 10:03

Plenty of jobs in construction. No quals needed, good wages when you progress. The reality is that it's hard, manual labour where you're out in all weathers- lots of young people don't want to do it. But they also don't want to apply themselves to progress up a different path.

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And I don’t really blame them, to be honest: I probably wouldn’t want to labour on a building site either, I’m just fortunate enough to have options.

Anecdotally though, I think many young men who do go into construction now have male relatives already in the trade, so it comes more naturally to them that they’d follow. Maybe that’s another of the aspects we’ve lost, the community aspect of the days when you left school and your dad or uncle asked the site foreman if you could have a job and if the foreman knew them to be reliable you were in, no CVs or application forms or interviews.

ComtesseDeSpair · 09/08/2022 10:14

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 10:05

Statistics. Statistics show most working class children don't get within an arses roar of university, due to education inequality etc. Plenty also don't achieve the brilliant GCSE's and A levels needed for good apprenticeships and vocational trades these days.

Also, the estate you grew up on sounds very different to mine. A lot of people on here seem to be going off of "personal experience" rather than actual facts and statistics.

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In fairness OP, you started out using the term “working class” and only later clarified that you were using it as a synonym for poverty, neglect and drug addiction. That’s confused the thread somewhat, because it isn’t what most people understand of being working class. According to the ONS, 61% of the UK population self identifies as working class - they clearly aren’t all the impoverished dregs, and they will have entirely different experiences, including that of being able to progress.

fyn · 09/08/2022 10:15

@x2boys I don’t think it is about writing your son off, but acknowledging not everyone is able to do every job. Maybe your son won’t be an accountant but he could get a trade and do very well for himself. I think getting a trade is a perfectly respectable and there is great potential.

AlexandriasWindmill · 09/08/2022 10:22

berksandbeyond · 09/08/2022 06:18

I think if your parents (and their parents) left school at 16 and got a job (or in some cases didn't), took the first council house offered in the same socially economically deprived village they grew up in, and stagnated there for the rest of their lives in poverty, the chances of those children achieving a higher standard of lifestyle? A lot smaller than it should be

Staying in the same house or area doesn't mean 'stagnating'. The misinformation and snobbery on this thread from posters who 'think' they're discussing helping wc DCs is staggering.

Everything in your post applies to my family except one parent was an invalid. We didn't 'stagnate'. We all worked hard. I was the first to go to university. I had grants and loans and worked to cover my costs. Myself and all my siblings built careers and professions.

Is there poverty? Yy Massive wealth disparity? Yy. Does that mean all wc DCs are stagnating and struggling to 'better' themselves? No. The biggest issue is cross-stressors eg disability; addiction; caring, etc

The real issue isn't wc DCs in LA housing. It's family with third generation unemployed. It's areas where community centres and resources have been decimated. It's people - no matter how well-intentioned - assuming a mechanic or builder or hairdresser or shop assistant must secretly wish they were 'better' and had a degree.

The very latest research on working patterns and aspirations is showing a massive swing away from hours-heavy 'careers'.

Original poster

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 10:28

@AlexandriasWindmill She said stagnating in poverty. You seem to be deliberately taking a lot of terminology on here out of context to try and "prove points" that no one was talking about in the first place?

OP posts:

Original poster

frozenlakes · 09/08/2022 10:37

ComtesseDeSpair · 09/08/2022 10:14

In fairness OP, you started out using the term “working class” and only later clarified that you were using it as a synonym for poverty, neglect and drug addiction. That’s confused the thread somewhat, because it isn’t what most people understand of being working class. According to the ONS, 61% of the UK population self identifies as working class - they clearly aren’t all the impoverished dregs, and they will have entirely different experiences, including that of being able to progress.

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@ComtesseDeSpair

Regardless of poverty, neglect and drug addiction the statistics are still heavily against all working class children across the entire spectrum. As a PP said, a lot of people referring to their top A levels and first class degrees are just not getting it.

You made a lot of good points BTW in your posts above regarding less factories, dockyards and coal mines shrinking a lot of opportunities for working class boys.

OP posts:

Soorude · 09/08/2022 10:42

"Social mobility basically stopped when the 11+ and the opportunity for grammar school education was removed."

All of my siblings went to a comprehensive school in the 80s and 90s ( working class family in working class area). 5 out of 6 of us have degrees including a doctor. Grammar schools aren't needed.

bringonthesunshinefinally · 09/08/2022 10:48

Eunorition · 08/08/2022 20:47

There is still mobility if they work hard in school. That is key. They can be working class, but there's no excuse for not getting 5 GCSEs and A Levels. They don't cost anything.

If they don't want to go to uni, fine, there are routes into work without it, but they'll have to do the research and find those access courses, internships and training schemes. Again, the rewards come to those who put the work in.

I was involved in tech courses getting people into roles without degrees. It was still overwhelmingly middle class. We had some working class students, and they were great and committed, but they did all share similar stories that their families had offered no help, guidance or support at all. They didn't know how. So they have to be very self driven and motivated to get out of the rut on their own.

No one's going to inherit property from the middle class. It gets sold to pay for care fees.

Rewards do not come to those who put the work in. Rewards come to middle class children whose parents pay for tutors, pay their rent as adults so that they can get unpaid apprenticeships, give them a house deposit to get on the housing ladder, and can drive the darlings around to their various after school activities. I have two middle class darlings of my own and I'm well aware that they have a huge head start in life, compared to working class children. It is naive to think that hard work alone gets you to where you want to be in life.