the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

[MermaidCheeks]

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

If only those who could really afford to have kids had them - a decreasing well-off demographic -we'd be even more fucked than we already are.

Immigration is not a long-term solution when 80% of elderly are going to be spread across low and middle-affluent countries by 2050, either. Every country is going to need their own citizens.

Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids - maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

I mean the “don’t have kids if you can’t afford it” line is stupid because it doesn’t consider that people’s situations and finances can change over time.

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

But this is also stupid. Don’t pretend you are doing others people a favour by having children. No one is “making a sacrifice” to have kids for the hood of society, they are not having kids for selfless reasons.

I'm 33 weeks pregnant. When I fell pregnant I could afford my baby, we were pretty comfortable. Now it feels like the world is going to shit 😂 and I'm starting to wonder when it'll all go back to normal!

We have a horrendous problem with overpopulation

no one has children to benefit others

caring is a job pretty much no one wants to do.

if it makes you feel better, I will happily do myself in before the infirm stage, regardless of what resources are available. But I cared for my poor father and it's tragedy to outlive your own health. Not much upsets me these days, but the loss of dignity....

anyway, your whole proposition is a bit strange. If you just want to keep pumping out a pyramid scheme of more people, we will run out of natural resources too.

kids are expensive and when you read up how some people are having to water down baby milk because they can't afford it or only have noodles to feed their kids.. its not fair on the child is it.

I think the whole don't have kids if you can't afford it isn't aimed at anyone specific but just if you can't afford to feed yourself let alone your child which is your own responsibility I totally agree.

there is no population crisis of not enough people around so I dont get why you think having kids is a service when there's a lot of kids that actually need adopting or fostering.

Having children so that you might have someone to look after you when you are old is one of the most stupid things I have ever read on here.

I do think having 4+ kids when you've only ever been receiving government funds to finance you is taking the piss though 🤷🏼‍♀️

Who should pay for the kids then?

I completely understand that you can plan for children and all is good then between getting pregnant and them turning 18 things change and you need help. That's what benefits are for, to provide help when circumstances have changed.

But to actively choose to have a child knowing you won't be able to afford to support them is different and that's what people have a problem with.

I get very annoyed reading the 'woe is me' stories in the tabloids complete with sad faces because there are 6 kids and 2 adults in a council flat and they can't get a bigger house because there aren't any. They've been on the list for 5 years and the youngest 3 kids are 4 and under. So they've actively chosen to have 3 of the 6 kids knowing they couldn't afford to private rent and didn't have room in their currently heavily subsided and secure housing.

They need to take some responsibility for their decisions.

I agree.

I always ignore the "don't have children if you can't afford them" brigade. I find it preachy and patronising.

I'd never have had children at all if I had waited until I could comfortably afford them.

Maybe that isn't the entire point of the thread, but it is my take on it and I suspect that I am not alone.

It's the privileged of mumsnet who think that no one on a low income deserves to have children.

I think it's extremely selfish to have more kids than you can afford.

Great, more children trapped in poverty. Exactly what society needs.

Having children is a huge responsibility. Not towards society, but towards that child themselves.

You need to be able to provide for the child, physically and emotionally. And there’s a difference between not affording Montessori nurseries and seven clubs a week (NOT the meaning of poor) and not being able to buy nappies and food for your kids.

The latter group shouldn’t have children, no. Because when you create a baby and decide to have it, you should do so with that baby’s best interests in mind. Not yours, not society’s. It’s the child you need to be committed to.

I work with children and I admit to occasionally feeling a fleeting sense of frustration when parents who I know are consistently unable to provide the basics for their existing DC tell me they are pregnant again. I feel the same when they tell me they're getting another dog. But when this happens I recognise that IABU and have a word with myself, because it's not my place to judge. I would hate to live in a society where only the wealthy had choices.

Oh, and I did not have my children for them to look after me in old age. I had them because I wanted them, and they will have their own lives. All are now in their twenties.

If you just want to keep pumping out a pyramid scheme of more people, we will run out of natural resources too.
We have a horrendous problem with overpopulation
I completely agree. However, unless the over 70s are going to start topping themselves, we have a major problem with low birth rates. The NHS and social care has already started crumbling.

no one has children to benefit others
I didn't say parents sacrificed (their careers/time/finances) in order to have kids for others - but it DOES benefit a society with an ageing pop to have children - if they want to continue caring for the elderly that is.

You often see threads on MN from people who already have at least 1 child saying that they are struggling to find the money to eat but really want another child. All too often the advice is "go for it, you'll make it work somehow". Personally I think it's pretty irresponsible to have a child, particularly when you already have one knowing that you can't afford them.

There's also different types of "afford". You also see threads on MN where people think they can't afford another child because it means they won't be able to pay for private education for two.

Circumstances can change but there are a lot of people that struggle to afford one child and only have a one bedroom home and yet go on to have another couple of children, making their whole situation a lot worse. They then complain their house is too cramped, they can't afford school shoes etc.

As long as you're not expecting any medical or social care when you're elderly.....

I didn't say parents sacrificed (their careers/time/finances) in order to have kids for others - but it DOES benefit a society with an ageing pop to have children - if they want to continue caring for the elderly that is.

Only if the children want to care for the elderly! Unless we are going to move to a Brave New World type scenario where children are pre-assigned to particular jobs/responsibilities.

I only ever really think that when I hear of people bringing babies into a large family with scarce resources. I just privately think ‘Why? You’re skint and have three kids already. Why can’t you control your ‘need’ to have another baby?’ Contraception exists, thank God. Women don’t have to breed endlessly in poverty.

It’s a private fleeting thought, though. I’m not gonna get on my soapbox judging people endlessly.

Otherwise, it’s a personal decision based on how you square things in your own life and according to your values. I certainly wasn’t in the MN-ideal situation of married, living in my ‘forever home’, good savings, career at its peak etc when I had my first child, but I also knew I wanted a child in my late twenties and wasn’t prepared to fuck about with my fertility in order to get my ducks in a row.

Re: population. Isn’t the birth rate fairly low in European countries anyway? Not sure if that’s going to affect peoples decisions.

Of course we need future generations to provide taxes and social care etc. Not sure what the argument is there?

I think at some point in the future there will be a one child only policy. Possibly not in my lifetime but the world is already over populated.

Yes, only the well off are not judged for procreating. My original point stands.

No, actually. I’m the eldest of four children born to dirt-poor, illiterate parents, who had far more children than they could afford — I grew up counting the days til, pay/dole day, knowing never to ask for second helpings or to bring a friend home after school because the money wasn’t there. It was an utterly miserable way to grow up. Your personal right to reproduce doesn’t mitigate the effect of poverty on your children.

@FatAgainItsLettuceTime

exactly!!

people whinging that childcare is too expensive & should be even more subsidised/free really annoying me too, don't have the third plus child if YOU can't afford it, stop expecting everyone else to subsidise you.

@MermaidCheeks yeah right, you had your kids as a public service, of course you did. No other reason....🤦🏻‍♀️🙇🏻‍♀️🙇🏻‍♀️🙇🏻‍♀️

You're entirely missing the point.