the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

[MermaidCheeks]

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?


If only those who could really afford to have kids had them - a decreasing well-off demographic -we'd be even more fucked than we already are.

Immigration is not a long-term solution when 80% of elderly are going to be spread across low and middle-affluent countries by 2050, either. Every country is going to need their own citizens.

Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids - maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

[AhaLyn]

Also in regards to care staffing crisis, maybe we should be paying carers more than the joke wage of 10 quid an hour in the counties with biggest portion of ageing population.

[MermaidCheeks]

@antelopevalley

I have worked in care work. Most care workers have not been born in Britain. So for that YABU.

Sorry, failing to see your point in relation to the OP.

[MermaidCheeks]

@AhaLyn

Also in regards to care staffing crisis, maybe we should be paying carers more than the joke wage of 10 quid an hour in the counties with biggest portion of ageing population.

Agree as already stated.

[Weefreetiffany]

Maybe if we valued caring and build communities so we focus on caring for eachother, children, elderly, friends and neighbours, rather than glorifying individuals amassing as much money as possible but who don’t have the time for anything else and think caring is actually beneath them, we wouldn’t need to have this conversation.

why is it we allow energy companies to make billions, more money than they can spend in a lifetime, while millions of human beings have to choose between heating an eating?

[Cornettoninja]

The over-reactionary defensive response from people posed to the practical dilemma faced by everybody isn’t exactly helpful.

It is a fact that birth rates are declining and it’s a fact that will affect the quality of life of the increasing elderly population. It’s perfectly fair for someone to point out that the stereotypical channel 5 documentary family aren’t the problem here and whatever ‘benefits’ they’re claiming is more than a drop in the ocean compared to chaos coming in society. It’s a distraction and not worthy of the level of public scorn it receives.

[MermaidCheeks]

Why would the government give you a medal for choosing to have a kid?

Not a medal, but more helpful policies perhaps.......Because we need the kids, maybe?????

[notOKtoday]

I have a very large family and often get people saying to me how bad for the planet it is BUT we don’t have a car or use air travel so it’s offset whereas the people who criticise me have 2 or 3 children , 2 family cars and go on multiple holidays a year

[antelopevalley]

@Weefreetiffany

Maybe if we valued caring and build communities so we focus on caring for eachother, children, elderly, friends and neighbours, rather than glorifying individuals amassing as much money as possible but who don’t have the time for anything else and think caring is actually beneath them, we wouldn’t need to have this conversation.

why is it we allow energy companies to make billions, more money than they can spend in a lifetime, while millions of human beings have to choose between heating an eating?

I agree with this. I did a ton load of volunteering in the past to run activities for local children. Lately I wonder if I was a mug and should just have worked those hours and got paid doing a job and fuck everyone else.

[LittleHeapOfBooks]

In answer to what, I will refer you to the first line of your OP is Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

[Capri3]

@BigChesterDraws

Oh goodie, the old “my children will be working to pay your pension” myth. No, they won’t. The working childless people have paid more than their fair share into the pension pot throughout their lives. They have continuously paid into the “general welfare fund” without receiving child benefit, SMP, tax credits, free school meals, or any other such benefits.

Your children will be working for their own pension. If they have a job. They could be on the dole their entire lives, in prison, unable to work through accident or illness. No one can predict the future.

Who do we think will be caring for us in old age? If we need care, and remember not every 80-year-old is in a nursing home and advances in science mean that people are living independently longer, it will be someone that we pay to look after us. Your children might be glad of the job opportunity.

This.

Out of the 11 elderly people I have known (aged 75 to 93) who have died, one needed carers in twice a day for a couple of months. The whole “you’ll need someone to wipe your arse in your old age” nonsense that frequently comes up on these threads is complete crap.

[MermaidCheeks]

@Cornettoninja

The over-reactionary defensive response from people posed to the practical dilemma faced by everybody isn’t exactly helpful.

It is a fact that birth rates are declining and it’s a fact that will affect the quality of life of the increasing elderly population. It’s perfectly fair for someone to point out that the stereotypical channel 5 documentary family aren’t the problem here and whatever ‘benefits’ they’re claiming is more than a drop in the ocean compared to chaos coming in society. It’s a distraction and not worthy of the level of public scorn it receives.

Yes, bit surprised at the scornful response to my post to be honest.

The impending issue is clearly less widely acknowledged/known about than I realised!

[PeloAddict]

Everyone says oh you'll find a way
I can't afford a child. Would I like one? Yes
But I can't afford nappies, clothes, childcare so that's the end of that. I can just about afford looking after myself
If I got pregnant I would have to terminate

[Cornettoninja]

@AhaLyn

The NHS is crumbling because it’s being choked on purpose towards privatisation.

I won’t be having kids when I can’t feed myself. Hope that’s okay.

Completely reasonable, how could it not be? But you do have to ask yourself why you are subject to living in a society where that’s the case even though it’s clear where we’re heading.

[Juii]

I started reading through the thread but started to feel confused by it all, it is obviously an emotive subject for many, as it should be really. There are a lot of factors present in the OP that seem to correlate but in my opinion don't. For example the opinion that children should continue to be born to care for elderly is naive, and not really going to work. We do have an aging population crisis set to get worse, but procreating to create an army of helpers is not the solution is it? The solution creates it's own problems, and I am not comfortable with the idea that someone's child is being born to take care of me in forty years. I think we have chosen to prolong life at any cost, and are seeing the downside of that. I personally dread becoming old in a society that wants to prolong my life but sees no value in me while they do it. We need to work to prolong health (where possible) and not just life. We need to start being responsible for ourselves.

I have thought "Why have more kids, you can't afford the ones you have", but this thought is more holistic of the different costs of child-rearing. When I see children struggling because of lack of multiple resources (mainly love, time and attention as well as money ), I struggle to remain supportive. (Although I never comment, it is not my place to). I am supportive of my taxes going to children for education, care and support and I believe it is a form of "It takes a village to raise a child" mentality, I do not care if the countries benefits are used to support loving and caring families, we need so much more of them!

[Cognacsoft]

This is not a judgement because I think ivf should always be free but I'm baffled that people who have been trying for a dc for several years can't afford ivf.
If they haven't saved £6k in 4/5 years how do they think they'll afford dc?
3 days childcare is £8k roughly. X 3 years thats £24k.

[CounsellorTroi]

@HailAdrian

It's the privileged of mumsnet who think that no one on a low income deserves to have children.

Why are children something people “deserve” or don’t? For most people they are a choice.

[MermaidCheeks]

@Capri3

This.

Out of the 11 elderly people I have known (aged 75 to 93) who have died, one needed carers in twice a day for a couple of months. The whole “you’ll need someone to wipe your arse in your old age” nonsense that frequently comes up on these threads is complete crap.

I work caring for the elderly in their homes. Your own anecdotal experience is not a reflection of the crisis going on in social care, and you clearly have no idea.

[rainbowmilk]

@notOKtoday

I have a very large family and often get people saying to me how bad for the planet it is BUT we don’t have a car or use air travel so it’s offset whereas the people who criticise me have 2 or 3 children , 2 family cars and go on multiple holidays a year

It’s a myth that the car/plane travel offsets kids. Having a child is many, many measures worse than running a car or taking long haul flights every so often.

[thesurrealist]

@antelopevalley

I have worked in care work. Most care workers have not been born in Britain. So for that YABU.

Well of course. Despite the virtue signalling on here no MN parent wants their children to work in the care sector! It's just used as alineto bash us childfree people.

[User135792468]

Of course you shouldn’t have children if you don’t have enough money to feed and clothe them. It’s irresponsible and selfish. Having a child isn’t a right so if you can’t earn enough to meet their basic needs, then you don’t deserve to have a child.

I have the number I can afford and give a good life to. I’ve made a conscious decision to not have more for financial reasons as my obligation is to take care of them and give them a good life.

People who live in overcrowded accommodation because they have a 2 bed flat with 5 children and are then moaning as the council won’t give them a bigger house should not be procreating. If they want to be a parent, then they could have 1 and not 5. People should absolutely not have more children then they can afford. Of course I would judge them, how could you not judge someone openly selfish and irresponsible? Bringing your child into a life of poverty to meet your own needs is neglect.

[Cornettoninja]

@MermaidCheeks

Yes, bit surprised at the scornful response to my post to be honest.

The impending issue is clearly less widely acknowledged/known about than I realised!

The propaganda runs deep, we’ve had over twenty years of media explicitly telling us that all our problems are caused by feckless breeders who don’t want to work.

Its a shame, it doesn’t really take that much energy to look at the actual figures and see that is not where the problems in society lie.

[EmeraldShamrock1]

If only the wealthy had DC who'd stack the supermarket shelves, clean the offices, look after the elderly and disabled?
WC are an important part of society, the cogs that help push the machines.

[MermaidCheeks]

Maybe if we valued caring and build communities so we focus on caring for eachother, children, elderly, friends and neighbours, rather than glorifying individuals amassing as much money as possible but who don’t have the time for anything else and think caring is actually beneath them, we wouldn’t need to have this conversation.
why is it we allow energy companies to make billions, more money than they can spend in a lifetime, while millions of human beings have to choose between heating an eating?

ABSOLUTELY agree.

[Cornettoninja]

@User135792468

Of course you shouldn’t have children if you don’t have enough money to feed and clothe them. It’s irresponsible and selfish. Having a child isn’t a right so if you can’t earn enough to meet their basic needs, then you don’t deserve to have a child.

I have the number I can afford and give a good life to. I’ve made a conscious decision to not have more for financial reasons as my obligation is to take care of them and give them a good life.

People who live in overcrowded accommodation because they have a 2 bed flat with 5 children and are then moaning as the council won’t give them a bigger house should not be procreating. If they want to be a parent, then they could have 1 and not 5. People should absolutely not have more children then they can afford. Of course I would judge them, how could you not judge someone openly selfish and irresponsible? Bringing your child into a life of poverty to meet your own needs is neglect.

You’re right, they shouldn’t be moaning that the council won’t give them a bigger house.

They should be moaning that successive governments have facilitated an economy that moves the ability to be self sustaining further and further out of reach.

shelter is now an investment not a basic need.

[BeanieTeen]

I think it depends on circumstances and people’s attitudes. I’m very sympathetic towards a couple in in their thirties wanting to have a child although money is tight. You can’t wait forever. Most people can make it work if they’re smart about it. I wouldn’t begrudge anyone having a child full stop .
I do think it’s ridiculous when a couple is in their early to mid twenties and despite not having stable jobs or savings decide to have a baby and think a magic money fairy will come along and provide for it. There’s a childish attitude in some of ‘I want a baby and I want it now!’ like it’s a pet, when really they could wait a few more years. Easier to pop out a baby and hope for the best than make an effort to establish a stronger form of income and put some money to one side for a rainy day.
Even better when within the next five years, one baby turns into three children and they don’t have adequate housing, clothing or enough food. I think some parents complete lose sight of what’s ‘good enough’ when it comes to what their children need. Hence they have more (children) without realising that it means their other children will have less (food, decent clothing, space, activities, toys etc).Their wish to procreate tops everything and it’s just plain selfish and shameful.