the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

[MermaidCheeks]

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

If only those who could really afford to have kids had them - a decreasing well-off demographic -we'd be even more fucked than we already are.

Immigration is not a long-term solution when 80% of elderly are going to be spread across low and middle-affluent countries by 2050, either. Every country is going to need their own citizens.

Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids - maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

This is an extremely stupid arguement.

There certainly needs to be.

It is a stupid thing to say, particularly since it's usually aimed at those who already have children. What do they expect parents to do? Rehome them?😆

*argument.

Its obviously multi-faceted - Care and nursing are outrageously low-paid for such hard work. lack of appropriate funding, not enough nhs staff to supervise trainees, vicious cycle of pressured,stressed-out staff working on unsafe-hospital wards leaving the profession etc etc. Not to mention the ageing population placing an ever-increasing burden and the fact that birth rate hasa halved since 1960.

The working childless people have paid more than their fair share into the pension pot throughout their lives.

Morally, perhaps. But this argument unravels because, although they may have paid in, it was all paid out rather than being kept in the pot for them to have recourse to later. At the point at which the pot is empty, standing around saying 'I paid in so I should get X, Y and Z!' isn't going to help. It's essentially a massive Ponzi scheme. If you don't have sufficient new 'investors' (in the form of taxpayers), the older ones won't be paid out.

maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

Yes, because everyone has kids for completely altruistic reasons? People have kids because they want them, it is a purely selfish motive

I think at some point in the future there will be a one child only policy. Possibly not in my lifetime but the world is already over populated.

Like China? Who have reversed this policy due to an aging population.

Birth rates can't keep going up though - the planet isn't big enough

We need better ways to manage / and immigration of climate refugees doesn't could be part of a good solution

I do think having 4+ kids when you've only ever been receiving government funds to finance you is taking the piss though 🤷🏼‍♀️

Agree with this.

I agree. I am the third born of four and my parents could not afford four children. I have always thought they should have stopped at two, even though that would mean my not existing. I had a miserable childhood growing up in poverty. Not having children if you can’t afford them seems entirely sensible.

It’s an huge over simplification, but there’s a grain of truth in that most people can only support a smaller family, tbh. I had an image of myself with four children and a dog, but after we had two children, it was clear that our family’s standard of living would drop drastically if we had more. We didn’t have any family support for childcare, for example, so that alone ate up a huge amount of money.

So we stopped at two and we did eventually adopt our dog. 😁

Yes, because everyone has kids for completely altruistic reasons? People have kids because they want them, it is a purely selfish motive

No not for altruistic reasons, but they are making sacrifices to have them, and society as a whole needs people to have them.

@MermaidCheeks "Its obviously multi-faceted - Care and nursing are outrageously low-paid for such hard work. lack of appropriate funding, not enough nhs staff to supervise trainees, vicious cycle of pressured,stressed-out staff working on unsafe-hospital wards leaving the profession etc etc. Not to mention the ageing population placing an ever-increasing burden and the fact that birth rate hasa halved since 1960."

You don't seem to be saying that care work is the kind of job you would want your children to have, you don't seem to see it as a good option. So why would you be advocating for people to have children they can't afford with the goal of those children taking on the jobs that you criticise?

It’s cruel and selfish to inflict poverty on children. They have poorer opportunities and outcomes, it stays with them their whole lives.

Much more consideration should be put into actually planning a family. We have an abundance of contraceptive options so there’s really no excuse of ‘accidental’ pregnancies anymore.

And the argument about helping to support an ageing population - if we start having LESS children now there will be LESS old people in future generations.

Imagine how much of the NHS resources would be freed up!

Yes, people just can't afford to have big families.

I AM a carer - have been for the last 11 months.

Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids

Interesting view point.

How about instead, people were paid enough not to need benefits, who would’ve thought that a full time employees should take in benefits because their employer refuses to pay a living wage, and worse the very care you seem to be procreating for is one of the worse paid jobs in society?

How about raising sell rounded educated individuals who will earn a living wage to support themselves and their own families without having to take benefits?

Lol humans are the only animals that pathologise the biological urge to reproduce.

we could comfortably have a society where this wouldn’t even be a question but the tories keep their capitalist buddies drowning in money and tell us poverty is our fault because we choose to have children. Even though the circumstances for most of humanity has been instability and large families and societies have been seen as stabilising structures. Now big families are seen as a drain and perpetuating poverty.

it’s government policy that’s perpetuating poverty. But you all would rather feel smug on mumsnet than write to your mp.

you couldn’t make it up.

OP, have you got more children than you can afford? Are you reliant on the state to support your family? It’s strange to think people should bring children into the world without stable means to support them. Yes, circumstances change but in general it’s easier to look after a smaller family for many reasons.

And the argument about helping to support an ageing population - if we start having LESS children now there will be LESS old people in future generations.

It will take quite a lengthy period of suffering due to critically low medical and social care until this happens though.

Parents’ motives to have kids are definitely selfish, @Fluffyboo , but those kids grow up and become useful to the rest of us! My DD, for example, wants to study engineering, That skill will definitely be useful to we oldies!

People don't want to die, and by the time they've lost all dignity and quality of life, they don't have 'mental capacity' to decide to die anyway

IME this is just not true. By the time my grandparents and parents were in their 90's they were all ready to go. And most of them were completely sane, with all their mental faculties intact. They were just tired of life. They didn't like the modern world, most of their friends had died, they weren't even particularly unwell, other than old, their lives became very narrow. Very few, lucky, 90 year olds, still have a zest for life. One, my dads mum, my grandmother, died at 103, with no health issues at all, she was amazing, lived alone, in the middle of nowhere, fended for herself, but even she had had enough.... she died in her sleep.

This! There is nothing altruistic about that choice.

Having children is also absolutely no guarantee that they will take care of you or anyone else in old age.

I have 3 children between the ages of 14 and 3, I work 25 hours a week as a carer and DH and I combined earn too much to be entitled to any UC.