the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

[MermaidCheeks]

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

If only those who could really afford to have kids had them - a decreasing well-off demographic -we'd be even more fucked than we already are.

Immigration is not a long-term solution when 80% of elderly are going to be spread across low and middle-affluent countries by 2050, either. Every country is going to need their own citizens.

Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids - maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

And yet all I hear is that parents are apparently most environmentally-conscious that us selfish childless people.

Yes, I've been told that to my face @rainbowmilk : that daring to inhabit a whole house is beyond the environmental pale. I'm a carless childless omnivore, who does fly (otherwise I'd never see family - the last 2 years have been quite tough in that respect). But my 2 to 3 flights a year go nowhere in relation to the CO2 load of a child and a car.

I don't agree with people who have about 6 or 7 kids or more running to the papers wailing they can't afford to live, and I am afraid I have to agree that if they can't afford it, don't have such a large family (I am not talking about people who have 6, 7 or more kids under their roof and some they've taken guardianship of as that is totally different).

However, I also don't agree with beliefs held by some, often on Mumsnet, that people shouldn't have a baby if they don't own property, have a wage of over a certain amount, etc. Such stipulations are ridiculous as nobody would ever have babies and the human race would go extinct.

As someone who I am sure my now elderly parents only had me to take care of them when they are old, I disagree with this as people don't have babies for this reason. I will not expect my children to look after me when I am old.

I really disagree that poor people should not have children. That's extremely unfair akin to sterilisation of the poor.

I will be there for my mother in her old age, my children will be there for me.

sadly I am not sure children look after parents in this country. It is still common in some communities but I would say it is not expected in the general population.

DH and I will look after MIL in her old age but at the same time MIL has 4 children and only DH and I are in the position to help. 2 of his sisters have immigrated to Israel and would not be returning for the foreseeable future. If DH had immigrated to my home country (which could easily have happened), there would have been no one to look after MIL as her youngest daughter is autistic.

I really disagree that poor people should not have children. That's extremely unfair akin to sterilisation of the poor.

Of course it is barbaric to suggest sterilisation or reasons why they shouldn't.
There is a huge difference between living on benefits sitting on your arse and blue collar workers/service workers who enjoy life, are kind to others, WC people are great people and an important part of society.

Lots of the young women around here work in childcare or elderly care work it suits them because they're naturally caring and are reared by parents to respect elders, little people or those less fortunate.

What about third world countries where poor humans reproduce and use resources from the planet, would pp's suggest wiping them out?

I'm proud to be WC from a longlist of blue collar workers.

The best lesson I learned from a young age was that I'm/we're no better than anyone else and you shouldn't judge those less fortunate. The poorer poor

A lesson some MC people could do with learning.

Well in those third world countries, children are a pension plan so deciding not to have children in those countries is setting yourself up for even more poverty in old age when you can no longer work. Even in China with its only child policy, there is anecdotal evidence that friends and acquaintances of ' elderly childless couples' (tragically even those who lost children in the sichuan earthquake) ostracize them because they are worried that they would need financial help and even old age homes refuse to take on these old people as they fear they can't afford the fees. even in my home country (which is a rich first world country), elderly people can sue their kids if their kids don't give them an allowance and can afford to.

It is a bit different in the West. Children are an expense and regarded as such. They are a joy and blessing and yet have none of the obligations. Its a pretty unique way of looking at childbearing and child raising in my view. No wonder so many people regard it as a luxury.

There is a huge difference between living on benefits sitting on your arse and blue collar workers/service workers who enjoy life, are kind to others, WC people are great people and an important part of society.

Totally agree with this. All jobs are important and I have no problem with people claiming benefits to top up a low wage but that's very different to breeding knowing your lifestyle will be solely funded by benefits cause you cba to work.

It is a bit different in the West. Children are an expense and regarded as such. They are a joy and blessing and yet have none of the obligations.

Well, yes. It's a result of our social safety net. The state being obligated to step in in these situations relieves other parties of responsibilities to some extent. You see the same thing with absentee fathers or even low wages from employers, for example.

It's an overtly good thing with less obvious negative second and third order consequences.

It is also why people are not worried about third world countries having kids they cannot afford. They are forced to make it work, whereas here the rest of us pay to make it work. It's always going to cause friction.

What a stupid thing to say. You aren’t a hero for having kids you can’t afford. And I understand peoples financial situation can change but it you are living in benefits with no intention of getting a job then you should not have an army of kids. I don’t mind people having 1 or 2, but it’s the ones who take the piss and have multiple children to multiple fathers that I have an issue with!

No Immigrants will or the tasks will be automated. It’s not a tough concept to grasp.

Absolutely 100% this ^
It really pisses me off when people keep pumping out kids when they do not have the financial means to care for them. Selfish and entitled. Benefits are absolutely there to fall back on should your circumstances change and you need support - they are not a lifestyle choice.

I don't have an issue with people on low incomes having a large family, as long as you're making your own sacrifices in order to afford it. We should all be able to spend our money how we choose, regardless of how much of it we have.

What I do have an issue with, is people who are supported by the government already and still choose to have more children, when they know it means they'll have to claim even more money from the government in order to afford them.

Also I've absolutely no idea what your obsession is with suggesting that any child born into poverty will end up as a care worker? Where the hell have you got this notion?

See this Bill Maher rant regarding which I find hard to argue with.....

m.youtube.com/watch?v=HB97iwcm_Qc

The NHS and social care has already started crumbling.

Immigration is a big part of the solution IMO and also restructuring things to make healthcare jobs at every level very attractive, the training accessible and training process streamlined. We could do this I think with a bit more effort than having more babies which would necessitate ever more babies to care for those ageing adults. It's change that's needed not the status quo

Immigration is a big part of the solution IMO

it certainly is but it’s not going to be easy to market to the masses after they’ve been whipped into a socially acceptable frenzy over the best part of a decade.

we’re a surprisingly territorial animal given our most important advances have relied on collective investment.

OP , YABU. The aging demographics is one issue and the number of children being born can’t be seen as the primary solution. We will have to address the problem of social care with measures like increases in National insurance, tax and incentives for people to work with the elderly.

Not only are you wrong, you are also stupid. People fall on hard times, yes. But that's not who this is about and you know it. It's the people who have children whilst having no job, and no intentions of getting a job. Just pumping out kids for free money and housing. Sub-human scum. And your "argument" about having children for care when you are older is fucking embarrassing.

i could afford a child when I had my first and was hoping for another soon she is 4 so going to school. But there is just no way - £500 per month extra on the Mortgage and £450pm on gas and electric. It just sucks I work really hard as does my partner but we are not eligible for any help ect so we are done at 1. Yes I will regret this on my death bed but I literally am worried constantly about putting food on the table ect

It's cheaper for the country to have immigrants than educate and provide healthcare and housing for children. However these immigrants likely to be of child bearing age and so may have some children If you say that people earning average wage shouldn't have children as nursery needs subsidizing, then sensible decently educated people holding down important jobs have fewer/ no children but some people e.g the Boris Johnson types rich and poor will continue to have them. Not sure what this does to the gene pool...

We need to stop kicking the can down the road for future generations to deal with. And increasing the population either through breeding or immigration is doing just that.

3 out of 4 of my grandparents worked all their lives in England. My gran retired back in her motherland. 3 were immigrants

The nan that doesn't work non immigrant as you call it has not worked the majority of her life.

My child's father is an immigrant and studied in England and has an excellent job. Immigrants generate wealth other wise the UK wouldn't let them here if it meant they were not profitable so to speak.

My British aunt has had 7 kids hasn't worked since she was 19......

No it's not the "privileged". It's the people who know that a child deserves to be taken care of. If you can't afford to take care of yourself, why would you bring another human in this overpopulated, cruel world. Yes, there is government assistance programs, but there are already so many people on them. Why should tax-payers who can barely afford living have to pay for someone else's child?

The first line made me laugh. I have personally known three women and one man, who had several children but died alone in a nursing home. In the case of the man, literally on the streets.

There is absolutely no guarantee that if you have children, your twilight years are taken care of. I'm really hoping no one is having kids so that they can have an assured future caretaker when they become old and infirm.