Did DD deserve to be told off??

[PillowFeather]

My sister came around earlier. DD (9) was being quite animated dancing around in the living room. I went to make a cup of coffee and just as I walked back into the room I heard my sister say “don’t come clarting around me!”. DD stopped dancing, gave a nervous laugh then retreated upstairs to her room. I shouted up that I’d made her a drink and got no reply so I went up to find her crying. I asked what was wrong and she shouted at me to go away.

I went back downstairs and asked my sister what had happened and she said “she was doing that stupid dance around me and I can’t be arsed with it, she needs to grow up”.

DD is quite immature for her age and it doesn’t help that my niece (sisters DD) is the same age but mature for her age. Niece is spending the holidays hanging out with friends whereas DD doesn’t have any friends 😞

I can’t get it out of my head, I think DD was embarrassed and I don’t think she deserved to be told off?! Or am I being soft?

Using a baby voice to talk at 9 years old, unless a child has had significant trauma, is unusual and a sign of immaturity.
Pretending issues do not exist, never helps a child.

I haven't RTFT but I wouldn't expect anything different from a 9 year old.

Your DSis' 9 year old is probably only "mature" because every time she does something appropriate for her age your DSis tells her to stop being so childish.

Let kids be kids - growing up can be shit, so let them have fun and be silly while they can!

@PeekAtYou love that - we used to play Dungeons and Dragons in the woods at that age!

But maturity in this context might simply mean the niece can have a conversation with an adult.

What I am saying is there is zero evidence the DD was “too close” to the aunt or “in the aunts personal space”.

Except that the aunt asked her not to "clart around me" which certainly suggests that at least one person in that scenario thought the DD was too close. And the aunt is allowed to have her boundaries, and she didn't tell her to stop dancing.

You're just busy defending your own particular head-kino that you are completely and utterly unprepared to entertain the idea that you might not be right.

What we do know is that the aunt doesn't like the dancing around, and asked that it not be close to her, and that there is zero evidence that she was mean about it and also zero evidence that she told DD to stop dancing completely.

The idea that children be allowed to annoy anyone they please in the name of living their best life is a problem - we all have to live in society. So we must accept that children play and dance, but we don't have to accept that it is in our space. We do have to accept that neighbours make some noise but we can't ban it completely. etc ad nauseaum ad infinitum

(it is also acceptable that family members help socialise other family members)

I’d be protecting my child from such horrible people. There is no need for a 9 year old to be spoken to like that. I wouldn’t tolerate it.

So she (dd) has a dance that she does (THAT dance)
She puts on a baby voice often
She misbehaved in martial arts
She has no friends
She's immature for her age (9)

Tbh she does sound attention seeking and annoying.

Get her some help OP to moderate her behaviour or she's going to have a hard time ahead.

@Brefugee
Except that the aunt asked her not to "clart around me" which certainly suggests that at least one person in that scenario thought the DD was too close.

Only if you ignore the rest of what the aunt said when the OP asked her “what happened?” which was “she was doing that stupid dance and I couldn’t be arsed, she needs to grow up”

So if the DD were dancing too close, then surely the aunt would have mentioned that to the OP when asked “what happened”

she didn't tell her to stop dancing.
True, but the result of what the aunt said was that the DD stopped dancing, went to her room and was crying. This is also consistent with the aunt not objecting to the DD dancing too close, but objecting to the DDs dancing because in her words it was “that stupid dance” and she “couldn’t be arsed”

If a child were dancing too close, and told don’t dance so close…they’d keep dancing but give it some space. If a child were not dancing to close and were told what the aunt said, then that would be a message to stop dancing and as the child left and was upset and crying, we can be sure it wasn’t said nicely. Children don’t get upset and cry when people are being nice to them.

So we must accept that children play and dance, but we don't have to accept that it is in our space.
But the DD wasn’t dancing in the aunts space, she was dancing in her own living room in her space. The aunt could have chosen to go into the kitchen with the OP of the dancing bothered her. She didn’t have to take over the DDs space.

So your DD was being herself….in her own home….where she should feel most comfortable in the world…and she gets pulled up on it by a visitor who is supposed to love her? Absolutely not on - if you don’t wanna be near my kids don’t come in my house. Whether she was being over sensitive or not, your sister is the adult in the exchange therefore the majority of the responsibility lies on her. She should have gone and talked to her, explained why she said what she said, and rectified the situation.

my daughter has just turned ten, she can also be silly at times, speak in a childish voice, and be immature. She can also be the kindest most generous person you know. It is very obvious to me that her insecurities come from a lack of confidence and I will certainly not ever try and force her to change into someone she is not. I will encourage her to be more confident in herself regardless of the approval of others.

That sounds horrible and completely unnecessary as that's a perfectly normal thing to play.

It sounds like the cousins are used to hearing your DD being told off for being childish and are picking up on it/mimicking that.

zero evidence that she was mean about it

Not the case. First the words were “don’t be clarting around me!” Which was said with enough emphasis for the OP to be concerned enough to ask “what happened?” and then go upstairs to check on her child. As a mum, I don’t ask “what happened” when clearly nothing untoward has happened while I was out the room. I certainly don’t feel a need to go and check on my child if an adult has been sweet and nice and they’ve just chosen to wander off.

Further evidence is the child was in tears from what the aunt said. More evidence it was said in a mean way.

But you choose to ignore the evidence and call it an over-reaction.

She's having problems in afterschool, with friends, and with family
If you think it's ND get her assessed for that
But if you don't help your daughter learn to behave other people will correct her, and not in a nice way 🤷

I find it strange that a mother would see teaching children acceptable social behaviour and social skills as teaching a child to rigidly conform.

Some children struggle with social skills. Good social skills and knowing what is appropriate behaviour is invaluable and can help a child be more successful and happy. An adult might decide to ignore what is seen as appropriate behaviour in certain circumstances, but they first need to understand what that appropriate behaviour is.

If the OP does not work with her DD on those skills, the DD will be told much more harshly by others that they do not like her behaviour. From children not wanting to be her friend, to people making comments about her behaviour.

At 9 years old I was still playing with toys and would put on "shows". But I would have thought a child that talked in a babyish voice was odd and a child that danced around in front of an Aunt unprompted odd. I would have thought such a child odd because I would have recognised that the child was not following appropriate social behaviour.

If the DD does have ADHD or ASD as some suggest, then some specialist support is even more important. The use of social stories for example can help children understand better appropriate social behaviour.

I never understand when a parent prefers to ignore issues their child is having, rather than tackling them.

I don’t think anyone is pretending the baby voice doesn’t exist, and you are right about the trauma link to it. What I am objecting to is the advice on how to handle it. Public humiliation as the grandfather did, is abusive. Pretending you can’t hear or understand the child when they speak in those tones, unnecessarily cruel. Telling the child repeatedly to not be childish and to grow up, verbally abusive.

The child needs to be assessed for ADHD and ASD and support given. Many ND children mature differently and need to be parented differently, otherwise you are only heaping more trauma on them.

Why does nearly wvery thread just lately, get derailed by people arguing. It's boring and tedious having to scroll through it all.

Anyway, I hope you're ok after reading this, op.

It is not possible to tell whether your dd deserved to be told off at all. If, for example, she had been repeatedly asked to sit down and not distract her aunt by jumping about (some people are not as good as others at dealing with distractions), and she ignored it, I could understand the aunt getting a bit annoyed. However, the aunt's comments about 'that stupid dance' and your dd 'needing to grow up' sound quite unnecessarily mean: not just telling-off but sneering. I don't think you are U at all.

Should have had a question mark in there. We really do need a timed edit button.

None of that proves the aunt was mean, though, that's just your interpretation.

To me, it shows that the DD was mucking about and got upset because her aunt told her to pack it in, and went off in a strop to cry.

Sometimes, 9yo's need to be told that their behaviour is inappropriate. The fact that the DD cried isn't proof that anyone was horrible or mean to her - lots of children don't like being told to "behave themselves" and will cry or go off in a strop. It's not necessarily evidence of a mean adult.

I mean, she's nine - two years off going to secondary school. She's more than old enough to know that not everyone wants to watch her dancing and messing about - there was absolutely nothing wrong with asking her to go elsewhere.

From OP's other posts, there's also a pattern of her not liking being called out on being silly/naughty - which shows me even more than it's not the aunts behaviour that's the problem.

If this was a one-off comment, you could say "well, the aunt was in a bad mood and took it out on DD" but when lots of people - including activity leaders, instructors AND family are all saying the same thing, maybe it's time to realise that there must be some truth in their comments.

Very much this

Guiding children to appropriate responses and behaviour in certain situations is a parents job

Children aren't born with an ability to make friends, 'fit in' or understand social norms

It's not telling a child to conform, it's teaching them there is a time and place for everything. Silly dances are great but not in a small room, baby voices are fun when playing pretend, but not when speaking to people having a conversation. Playing pretend is fun when all parties are aligned with that game.

None of the things DD in this case has done are 'wrong' but she doesn't understand the context of when and where to do certain things. When you can touch a piano and when not, when to dance like a loon, when to use a silly voice. And that's on the OP

The humiliation comes from pushing the subject, in front of others who were laughing when the girl clearly felt uncomfortable.

Agree 100% with this. OP, I think you need to coach her in behaviour that is useful to her. If she's not keeping friends...why is this? I'm not saying she shouldn't embrace her individuality (and I agree with the poser who recommended drama or dance lessons to help her gain confidence) but a 9 year-old with no friends is very sad and she must feel very isolated. What can be done to improve that for her? Its sad that her own family clearly find her annoying. We're not here to remove the stresses of life for our kids, we're here to help guide them through it. For her to be crying over a throw-away comment from your sister shows there is more going on under there about her feelings around herself and perhaps the reception she is getting from people. Your sister does sound as though she'd reached the end of her tether. If my niece was being annoying, I'd probably say something like 'what you doing my giddy kipper? Do you want to come and do some drawing with us?' Do you think your family feel that you indulge her with her (what they perceive to be) babyish behaviour?

The grandfathers approach was humiliating.
But sadly if OP continues to ignore her DDs issues and does nothing to address them, then other children and some adults will react in this way.
I would talk to the grandfather about his treatment of DD, but I would also be addressing DDs issues.
Other adults are also less likely to intervene if they can see you are tackling the issues your DD has.

OP, I think you need to coach her in behaviour that is useful to her. If she's not keeping friends...why is this? I'm not saying she shouldn't embrace her individuality (and I agree with the poser who recommended drama or dance lessons to help her gain confidence) but a 9 year-old with no friends is very sad and she must feel very isolated.

I think it’s important that the OP speaks to the school SENCO. I don’t think she’s in a position to coach her daughter. Like several PP I suspect her DD may be ND - and both the OP and her family are a bit clueless in knowing how to handle it. She needs support.

I agree with above.
Your poor daughter is in danger of becoming the family scapegoat for no good reason and that is not a happy or positive place to be.

The way your father scolded her was horrible, intolerant, and not his place. It is your place and you should be speaking up for her, not letting him upbraid her like that while the cousins looked on laughing.
The fact that your sister spoke to her so harshly about mere dancing around in her own home is awful and she also had no right to do it.
Your niece has witnessed how they speak to your DD and now feels that she can criticise her in the same way with no comeback. Your DD was showing a bit of creative imagination, thinking of something fun to do, what a gift, and yet her ideas were put down and sneered at by people who just sit there doing nothing and like to imply that they are superior.

These negative attitudes towards her won't stop unless you stand up for her when its happening and tell them to mind their own business. Did your father and sister also behave like this to you when you were growing up?

Please protect her from this. Young children are so sensitive to these kinds of comments from people they are supposed to trust, and respect, who are supposed to care for them. It sinks in and damages their confidence. If she gets reactions like that from family, it will affect how confident she feels at school.

Let her be a child, everyone is different and she doesn't have to conform to your family's harsh judgment. What makes their opinion more valid than yours? Children develop at different speeds and she will mature in time. So what if they think that is not fast enough for them. It's none of their business and it's not like she was doing any damage. If your sister can't take a bit of dancing, she is the one who needs to grow up and learn to be more tolerant.

Personally I would steer clear of them for a while and let your daughter find as many activities as possible to build her confidence, around people who encourage not criticise.

Also. If she's keen on the piano, there are many many You Tube tutorials that she could start off with and a little second hand keyboard to practice on. There may be opportunities at school. Or a guitar. If she learnt a new skill it would improve her confidence.

I wonder what classmates acting like 15/16 means? Does it simply mean they can stand or sit and have a conversation with an adult? If yes that is age appropriate behaviour.