Page 36 | What’s the most batshit belief you’ve ever known someone to hold

Ifyouwannabe1 · 2022-08-04T09:46:06+00:00

just met up with a long time friend (lovely, but utterly away with the fairies) who honestly believes the earth is flat as well as a whole host of other similarly crazy things. It got me thinking what’s the most batshit thing you’ve ever known anyone to think?

LovinglifeAF · 05/08/2022 13:28

Bythisway · 05/08/2022 13:20

So what? What about the flat earth's and anti-vaxers? Where is your concern for them?

The difference is gender dysphoria is a diagnosable condition (international classification of diseases) with likely a biological component and evidence based NHS medical treatment.

It’s globally recognised by virtually every country that it’s a condition and medical transition helps some people. It’s nothing like religion or beliefs. It’s clinical treatment and legal rights.

Having gender dysphoria and having treatment for it isn’t the same as saying people can change sex though.

babyjellyfish · 05/08/2022 13:38

Bythisway · 05/08/2022 13:20

So what? What about the flat earth's and anti-vaxers? Where is your concern for them?

The difference is gender dysphoria is a diagnosable condition (international classification of diseases) with likely a biological component and evidence based NHS medical treatment.

It’s globally recognised by virtually every country that it’s a condition and medical transition helps some people. It’s nothing like religion or beliefs. It’s clinical treatment and legal rights.

Of course it is a belief system.

It relies on the belief that people have gender identities, and that most people have gender identities which match their sexed bodies, whereas trans people have gender identities which do not match their sexed bodies, which is what makes them different.

This belief is flawed. More than flawed, even; it is complete nonsense.

There is no such thing as an identity which matches having a penis, or an identity which matches having a vagina. If these things existed, someone would be able to describe their characteristics.

And if there is no such thing as an identity which matches male or female genitalia, there is no such thing as an identity which doesn't match male or female genitalia.

theclangersarecoming · 05/08/2022 13:39

Bythisway · 05/08/2022 13:20

So what? What about the flat earth's and anti-vaxers? Where is your concern for them?

The difference is gender dysphoria is a diagnosable condition (international classification of diseases) with likely a biological component and evidence based NHS medical treatment.

It’s globally recognised by virtually every country that it’s a condition and medical transition helps some people. It’s nothing like religion or beliefs. It’s clinical treatment and legal rights.

I’ve been deleted in the past on here merely for saying this. That’s definitely no longer the approved gender-ideological line these days — apparently being trans is not any kind of medical or psychological or psychiatric condition. Saying so is now considered extremely offensive and transphobic! Just so you know!

MightbeMaybe · 05/08/2022 13:47

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Thank you, I appreciate that

OneTC · 05/08/2022 13:48

There is no such thing as an identity which matches having a penis, or an identity which matches having a vagina. If these things existed, someone would be able to describe their characteristics.

That never seems to slow conversations down about men as a class though. Definable characteristics and behaviours attributed to men seems to depend on the point being made

MightbeMaybe · 05/08/2022 13:50

Bythisway · 05/08/2022 13:20

So what? What about the flat earth's and anti-vaxers? Where is your concern for them?

The difference is gender dysphoria is a diagnosable condition (international classification of diseases) with likely a biological component and evidence based NHS medical treatment.

It’s globally recognised by virtually every country that it’s a condition and medical transition helps some people. It’s nothing like religion or beliefs. It’s clinical treatment and legal rights.

But no one, no one is denying that.

What we are saying is that the belief that a human being can change their biological sex is batshit.

It's not hard, we haven't changed the wording and yet a lot of people keep trying to change the terms of what we are talking about. Like you did.

It looks like you are trying to dilute an argument with irrelevant counter arguments or by changing the subject to something that would otherwise make us look a bit bigoted, I wonder why that is?

babyjellyfish · 05/08/2022 13:50

OneTC · 05/08/2022 13:48

There is no such thing as an identity which matches having a penis, or an identity which matches having a vagina. If these things existed, someone would be able to describe their characteristics.

That never seems to slow conversations down about men as a class though. Definable characteristics and behaviours attributed to men seems to depend on the point being made

The definable characteristics of men are being adult, human, and biologically male. That's it.

Behaviours attributed to men are just stereotypes.

JellySaurus · 05/08/2022 13:51

@EdgeOfACoin do you expect others to affirm and enable your beliefs? Does it invalidate you or deny your existence if someone says "Jesus was not the Messiah, he was just a Jew with a different philosophy"? What if they ask you not to eat bring ham sandwiches on a visit to a mosque? Can you cope if a Jew says Shabbat Shalom to you, or must they stick to Merry Christmas? Must all school kids recite The Lord's Prayer at every Assembly? Is it Christianophobic that Rish Sunak took the oath of allegiance to become an MP by swearing it on the Baghwad Gita rather than on the Gospel? Would it be acceptable for any of these people to tell you that you could not enter their houses of prayer because you are Christian, or would that be hatred?

StillHappy · 05/08/2022 13:54

OneTC · 05/08/2022 13:48

There is no such thing as an identity which matches having a penis, or an identity which matches having a vagina. If these things existed, someone would be able to describe their characteristics.

That never seems to slow conversations down about men as a class though. Definable characteristics and behaviours attributed to men seems to depend on the point being made

There’s a difference between noting statistical differences at the population level and claiming that a member of one of those populations knows which of their feelings maps to their sex.

You may as well say that a male nurse is “really” a female as say that any if the markers which Trans activists use to make the claim is a valid one.

Trying20 · 05/08/2022 13:58

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Emotionalsupportviper · 05/08/2022 13:58

the conversation on MN about trans people

It wasn't about "trans people"

It was about transideology

Orangello · 05/08/2022 13:59

Reality shows, alcohol and multiple men - Has this been your life?!
If believing in God at least keeps you away from a hedonistic lifestyle, it's worth it.

Um excuse me? Yes, of course as I'm an atheist, I am sitting here watching Love Island while shagging my 5th guy this week.
And even if I was, it wouldn't hurt anybody. Differing from the people banning a 10yo rape victim from getting an abortion or donning suicide vests to kill 'non-believers' all in the name of their alleged invisible friend.

MightbeMaybe · 05/08/2022 14:01

I'm still a bit miffed my thread was removed last night, I've asked for it to be reinstated in site stuff but no word back from MNHQ and they've hidden my request and the follow up asking if they had made a decision.

I'd really appreciate it if @Trying20 or someone else fancied starting another thread to discuss this because I'm finding it quite fascinating

babyjellyfish · 05/08/2022 14:06

EdgeOfACoin · 05/08/2022 13:22

I've seen quite a few posts in this thread mocking religion (Christianity, in the main - unless I've missed the ones specifically mocking Hinduism, Islam etc.) Admittedly, the disdain has been directed at the more extreme strand of Christianity such as young earth creationism. However, there have been plenty of posts on here belittling the relatively mainstream idea of a benevolent God.

Is it offensive to hear this stuff? Well, yeah, a bit - but so what? Not everyone is going to agree with my worldview. Christianity has been seen as a crackpot/dangerous religion since the beginning. In a free country, people are at liberty to mock beliefs they disagree with.

So, given that gender ideology is an unproven concept which flies in the face of everything we know about biological sex, why shouldn't it be subject to the same criticism and mockery as everything else? This is a belief which is leading to children taking puberty blockers, young women removing their breasts and undergoing hysterectomies, male-bodied people being allowed into women's spaces when women are at their most vulnerable and laws being rewritten to accommodate an ideology which just isn't underpinned by scientific evidence.

When it gets to the point that humans are seriously being compared to clownfish to support the ideology (ignoring the entire category of mammals, let alone great apes or even primates) then you know you are looking at a batshit belief.

We should be able to laugh at these beliefs.

As a Christian, I expect to be able to walk down the street and not be attacked. I do not want to be subjected to relentless mockery at work about my beliefs. That is part of living in a civilised society and I would hope that even the most die-hard of atheists would agree with that. In the same way, I have no intention of being nasty to an individual trans person.

BUT, I believe Christianity as a religion should be subject to the same scrutiny as anything else. As should Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam and gender ideology.

I personally think that Christianity can withstand the scrutiny. Can adherents of gender ideology say the same about their beliefs?

Excellent post.

As an atheist, I think I could be more easily persuaded of the existence of God than the concept of innate gender identity.

I have no proof that God doesn't exist. There is plenty of proof that innate gender identity doesn't exist, namely, all the people who don't have one.

And yet no one is trying to force me to pray to God or observe Ramadan. Gender ideology is the only unprovable set of beliefs society wants to force me to pretend I share.

MightbeMaybe · 05/08/2022 14:08

@Trying20 I’d someone rocked up on this thread and presented actual genuinely strong evidence of lizard people; I still wouldn’t believe them and would double down on my belief, because it’s so utterly utterly baffling to me. And I’m sure they’d do the same with however much evidence they were presented that the lizard people weren’t real; they’d double down and keep convincing themselves it was true.

See I'm completely the opposite, if someone presented me valid, scientific and peer reviewed evidence I'd change my stance. When confronted by the truth I tend to accept it rather than double down on my proven incorrect beliefs.

It's interesting that you are aware of that in yourself, well done for being self reflective to admit it. Not everyone can do that.

MightbeMaybe · 05/08/2022 14:10

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I also think this is a bit dangerously close to the cry of "nothing is real, what even are hard facts?" Trying20 put the laptop down and step away from the conspiracy rabbit hole! (lighthearted)

Trying20 · 05/08/2022 14:12

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Emotionalsupportviper · 05/08/2022 14:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2022 10:25

This specific belief was nominated in the fourth post on the thread, and then fairly frequently. The second post was about people believing Kier Starmer would make a good PM, I imagine that had the potential to offend quite a few people, no?

STARMER IS A PRINCE AMONG MEN!

Ok - everybody offended now? Perhaps we can move on

Bretonbear · 05/08/2022 14:20

Dotjones · 04/08/2022 10:50

Some people genuinely believe a Kier Starmer-led Labour government would actually be better than the current one.

Just because something is terrible doesn't mean an alternative is necessarily better.

Yep. I'm one of those people. Crazy eh!

ThePumpkinPatch · 05/08/2022 14:23

My ex-FIL that hamburgers were made of ham. He said nonchalantly to my ex "I'd like to try one of them hamburgers there ya know, lad?" (McDonalds, we had just been for lunch and my ex had really liked their latest burger he'd had and was telling his Dad about it). Genuinely, whole-heartedly believed that they were called that as they were made of ham! 🤣

Oh and a relative of my American friend whilst I was visiting them in Illinois, asked "In England do you have hours, minutes & seconds?" 😑 <- Was a genuine question.....
Obv I spent the next 10 mins explaining GMT

Emotionalsupportviper · 05/08/2022 14:24

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I was thinking along those lines too . . . I really need to know this now.

Sunfriedegg · 05/08/2022 14:57

Is this being offended stance, the same thing as the V in DARVO?
by being offended they then position themselves as the victim?

thedancingbear · 05/08/2022 15:09

Sunfriedegg · 05/08/2022 14:57

Is this being offended stance, the same thing as the V in DARVO?
by being offended they then position themselves as the victim?

'I completely disagree with your view. I think it has no factual basis whatsoever.' = fine. People should not, on the whole, be shielded from views they find unpalatable, even if they cause offence. We can agree entirely on that (at least within very wide parameters )

'Your position is the most batshit thing I've ever heard, and I'm going to rip the piss out of it by saying so on a supposedly-lighthearted internet thread' = calculated to cause hurt and offence, and not okay. I don't think anyone has to be kind. But I think we should try to be civil and tolerant.

You're entitled to feel and post differently, of course. I'm not trying to shut anything down.

MightbeMaybe · 05/08/2022 15:12

Sunfriedegg · 05/08/2022 14:57

Is this being offended stance, the same thing as the V in DARVO?
by being offended they then position themselves as the victim?

In terms of people being offended by others saying it's batshit to think humans can change sex, yes.

Especially when it's supplemented with lots of whataboutery, dilution of the argument, goal post changing and hyperbole which is where the "Reverse Victim and Offender" bit comes in.

MightbeMaybe · 05/08/2022 15:14

saying so on a supposedly-lighthearted internet thread' = calculated to cause hurt and offence

Is it though when the thread has asked for exactly this? Using those terms in the title?

Again I'll repeat the question, why is this the only offensive, calculated to cause hurt and offence statement? Why not the political statements or the fairies or the religious stuff people have also termed batshit.

Your agenda is showing