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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

1000 replies

YouAreNotBatman · 03/08/2022 15:07

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

OP posts:
LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 03/08/2022 19:06

And I think most of the sexism we experience is based on gender not sex

Thats so weird because I, a woman who does not express traditional female stereotypical traits, experiences sexism pretty much every day. Yet no one has ever checked my gender before they discriminated against me.

Am I doing something wrong? I feel like I am.

Halstead · 03/08/2022 19:07

FangsForTheMemory · 03/08/2022 15:11

One of the things it means to me is recognising that trans women are actual women and that they should be treated as such and supported by all women.

Supported to do what?

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 03/08/2022 19:08

Also if we experience discrimination based on gender rather than sex - when baby girls have FGM performed and 11yo girls are made to marry men 4 times their age….who is checking their gender first. Do they stop if that baby or girl identifies as male???? Or maybe there’s something those human beings both have that make them targets. What could it possibly be?

MbatataOwl · 03/08/2022 19:10

Sorry what defines them as males please?

What defines them as females with an intersex/dsd and not males with an intersex/dsd condition?

ScreechingEchoChamber · 03/08/2022 19:10

FangsForTheMemory · 03/08/2022 15:11

One of the things it means to me is recognising that trans women are actual women and that they should be treated as such and supported by all women.

And does it mean anything else at all to you, or is it purely a way to include males in the women's rights movement?

babyjellyfish · 03/08/2022 19:10

If what makes women and girls different to men and boys is being discriminated against and generally treated like a second class human, why does anyone - particularly male people - choose to be one?

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 03/08/2022 19:10

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 18:35

Trans women are more likely to be objectified and victims of sexual assaults and violence as a whole. I’m a woman and experience this too. As a gay woman we’ve both been discriminated against.

Do you have a source to say that TW are as likely to experience sexual violence as women?

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 19:12

If you’ll bear with me getting it, yes. I included it in my dissertation which is at home and I am not

Helleofabore · 03/08/2022 19:12

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 19:04

Sorry what defines them as males please? My thesis was about trans people not black women in sports but did touch on this as a comparison between the two, therefore I do not have “a list” of every black female athlete banned from competing. Literally Google black women banned from sporting events and you’ll find a plethora.

These two males were 'banned' because they have medical conditions that have resulted in them experiencing the benefits of a virilised male puberty. They do actually produce testosterone and have benefitted from their body being able to process it to produce advantages that all males experience.

It may be that they have streak gonads, or undescended testes. But they are males and due to policies in reporting get reported as 'females'.

Females, when tested for their chromosomes and other tests, who have testosterone in the higher range, will not actually be subject to the World Athletics policy around differences of sex development. They will be free to compete as they are females.

Males with CAIS are a different grouping and have specific regulations too.

So, do you have ANY black female athlete who has been banned from competing? Or are you referring to males with differences of sex development.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 03/08/2022 19:13

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 18:58

Hi, I’m really sorry to hear about your experience and honestly, I can’t give you an answer. I think part of the problem with the trans debate is that it does open the door for individuals who don’t really identify as trans, but see it as a cop out or a way to almost get away with doing terrible things to people, or to gain access to vulnerable people. That’s why I don’t think there is a clear cut way to “deal” with the trans problem, sorry I’m finding it difficult to choose my words appropriately here. I think there are risks to opening the door to anyone who wakes up one day and calls themselves a woman.

Sorry am I right in saying you believe people who are not good cannot ever identify as trans? And that person isn’t really trans?

WandaWomblesaurus · 03/08/2022 19:13

FangsForTheMemory · 03/08/2022 15:11

One of the things it means to me is recognising that trans women are actual women and that they should be treated as such and supported by all women.

That's nice dear.

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 19:14

Helleofabore · 03/08/2022 19:12

These two males were 'banned' because they have medical conditions that have resulted in them experiencing the benefits of a virilised male puberty. They do actually produce testosterone and have benefitted from their body being able to process it to produce advantages that all males experience.

It may be that they have streak gonads, or undescended testes. But they are males and due to policies in reporting get reported as 'females'.

Females, when tested for their chromosomes and other tests, who have testosterone in the higher range, will not actually be subject to the World Athletics policy around differences of sex development. They will be free to compete as they are females.

Males with CAIS are a different grouping and have specific regulations too.

So, do you have ANY black female athlete who has been banned from competing? Or are you referring to males with differences of sex development.

This is a perfect example of the discrimination blank women face lol. They are women. They have vaginas. They present as women.

babyjellyfish · 03/08/2022 19:15

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 19:14

This is a perfect example of the discrimination blank women face lol. They are women. They have vaginas. They present as women.

They weren't barred from the competition because they were black.

RedRosie · 03/08/2022 19:15

Feminist = knowing what a woman is.

Helleofabore · 03/08/2022 19:15

Sorry, was your thesis on trans people in sport? Or just trans people in general?

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 03/08/2022 19:17

babyjellyfish · 03/08/2022 19:10

If what makes women and girls different to men and boys is being discriminated against and generally treated like a second class human, why does anyone - particularly male people - choose to be one?

They want the sexy bits and aren’t prepared to put up with the shitty bits or fight to improve things for the class they claim to be in. Instead it seems to be a ‘I’m more impressed than you’ competition and women are told to STFU TERF whore

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 19:18

babyjellyfish · 03/08/2022 19:15

They weren't barred from the competition because they were black.

They were banned because they have higher levels of testosterone which is naturally occurring. I believe that this is more common with certain ethnicities, happy to be corrected.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 03/08/2022 19:18

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 19:12

If you’ll bear with me getting it, yes. I included it in my dissertation which is at home and I am not

No worries, happy to wait for it!

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 19:19

Helleofabore · 03/08/2022 19:15

Sorry, was your thesis on trans people in sport? Or just trans people in general?

I’d rather not say what it was specifically about because it’s quite outing and likely to cause offence to some people - but more so trans people in general yes. It touched on trans people in sport, their access to single sex spaces, and a comparison between their history and that of the LGB community.

Zerogravity · 03/08/2022 19:19

They present as women.
Present as women? What does that mean and why is it relevant?

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 03/08/2022 19:20

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 19:14

This is a perfect example of the discrimination blank women face lol. They are women. They have vaginas. They present as women.

What does not mean to present as a woman?

My DD’s ‘mufty’ wardrobe consists of boys tracksuits (as in bought in the boys section because they aren’t skin tight), black baggy clothes, football kits, baseball caps and she never goes anywhere without a football in her hand. She’d die before she wore pink, painted her nails, styled her hair or did ballet.

Is she still a girl?

middleofthelittle · 03/08/2022 19:21

I am a radical feminist , not a liberal feminist

Sex work should be abolished under the Nordic model

Trans women are trans women, they are not women.

Women should not have to make space in their world/space for trans women. Inclusion should not take away anything from an already marginalised group.

I am proud of my beliefs Grin

Helleofabore · 03/08/2022 19:22

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 19:14

This is a perfect example of the discrimination blank women face lol. They are women. They have vaginas. They present as women.

For sporting purposes, they have the benefits of male puberty.

They may or may not have vaginas. They do not have ovaries. They have testes that have produced testosterone. One condition that Caster Semenya has is 5ARD if that helps you to find more information.

What part of my post do you have an issue with?

Would you like me to link you up with the studies on males who have had a virilised puberty and the advantages they have over females? I can happily do that. I can also link you up with the Athletics regulations and even the judgments in the world courts about this issue.

This is harm that using language that allows the definition of males as women produces. These are male athletes, subject to the regulations of their sports that only apply to males and not to females. If they were females, they would not be subject to those regulations at this time.

RinklyRomaine · 03/08/2022 19:23

babyjellyfish · 03/08/2022 15:36

Personally I don't see how the belief that trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are neither men nor women is compatible with being a feminist.

The whole concept of gender identity depends on defining men and women as genders, rather than biological sex categories. For me as a feminist, that is really problematic. I have yet to see a definition of gender which isn't based in the very regressive stereotypes feminists are supposed to be fighting against. I don't see how it is possible to accept the legitimacy of gender at the same time as being a feminist.

Absolutely.

Helleofabore · 03/08/2022 19:26

electricdreaming · 03/08/2022 19:18

They were banned because they have higher levels of testosterone which is naturally occurring. I believe that this is more common with certain ethnicities, happy to be corrected.

Yes, males with differences in sex development are scouted in certain countries because the regulations allowed them to compete at various times in history. We know this.

They tend to come from areas that have poor health services around differences in sex development. Infants (or teens who have not had puberty as expected) in other countries have been identified early and receive medical support.

These athletes have been known to be deliberately sought out.

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