Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

What defines them as females with an intersex/dsd and not males with an intersex/dsd condition?

The athletics rules only apply to those with XY chromosomes.

www.worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=fd2923ad-992f-4e43-9a70-78789d390113.pdf&urlslug=IAAF%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20for%20the%20Female%20Classification%20%5BAthletes%20with%20Differences%20of%20Sex%20Development%5D%20in%20force%20as%20from%208%20May%202019

Male levels of testosterone, due to a DSD, yes.

Not the level of testosterone of a black woman.

I have every sympathy with people with DSDs who want to compete in sport. It must be very difficult to be told they can't, due to something they have no control over. But fairness has to come first.

I don't see what it has to do with trans people though. People like Lia Thomas are unambiguously male and there is already a category for male athletes.

Excellent counter argument.

But yes I'm very interested to thoughts on Hellobores questions

Sorry, meant Helleofabore

But if those levels of testosterone are naturally occurring in certain women, that doesn’t take away from the fact that they are women surely? Or are we saying to be a woman you must have XX chromosomes, a vagina, ovaries and any other stipulations? How do you actually define a woman? This isn’t goady btw I’d like your opinion. Because I imagine the definition differs between people and isn’t as clear cut as it seems.

A thread about feminism derailed by someone who claims to be a feminist but centres men in their feminism. FFS

Feminism is not concerned with the challenges faced by gender non conforming or vulnerable males.

So I would say whilst they are males they are not men.

///

Gonna need a much bigger Martini to get my fuzzy lady brain round that statement

Imo feminism = fighting for liberation from patriarchy.

Equality is double speak for ignoring biological difference and victim blaming.

If you ever see an article about women athletes that have been banned from competing in certain categories due to "naturally high testosterone", it usually means they are male (with a Y chromosome) and have a DSD.
Every time that I've seen someone try to say that black women have been banned from a sport due to their testosterone levels, they are male.

Link

"And as confirmed by World Athletics above, the DSD Regulations only apply to 46 XY athletes. As such, their application has outed Caster Semenya, Christine Mboma, Beatrice Masilingi, Francine Niyonsaba, and Margaret Wambui as 46 XY DSD, or ‘biologically male’."

If people run to defend them and want to protect them from mean nasty women you can bet they are male.

Nobody gives a shiny shit about actual females. So that really clears the matter up.

Ok electric. Please can you give the range of female testosterone production that you were using for your statement.

If you included this in your thesis, surely you had this information before making any statement about females being banned in sport.

Because a female with a testosterone level that is at the lower level of a male range may well have significant health issues such as a tumour.

That cross over that keeps getting discussed between male and female levels of testosterone, surely you investigated this as it formed a comparison you used in your thesis.

How do you actually define a woman? This isn’t goady btw I’d like your opinion. Because I imagine the definition differs between people and isn’t as clear cut as it seems.

Adult human female.

Its pretty unambiguous and I don’t think many people would argue any differently.

They aren't. They are naturally occurring in males with DSDs.

I define a woman as an adult human of the female biological sex.

(We have to be this precise now, because some people are using the word female to describe a gender identity.)

There is no other definition of the word that is actually meaningful.

To return to the thread... For me, at the moment being a feminist means feeling ashamed about the whole TWAW debacle, gender extremism, the loss of women-only safe spaces, the supplanting of women by transwomen in sports, the promotion of physically sexually reproductively and psychologically damaging medical treatments to girls and young women as a cure for supposed gender dysphoria... ashamed because I am a feminist in my 60s and all this shit happened on my watch.

Or rather, it happened over years when I should have been paying attention and raising awareness and resisting but I didn't. So I'm ashamed.

But does an adult human female have to have ovaries, XX chromosomes and a vagina to be a female? Obviously if they do, that’s narrower than those that don’t. For me, they don’t need the chromosomes and ovaries to be a female because we don’t know that people necessarily have those unless we test for them, so they’ll be treated as a female regardless.

It means the opposite to me as we have multitudes of evidence showing sex based oppression and pretty much none showing gender based as per the new unclear 'definition'of gender. E.g. we don't know if suffragettes, females in Afghanistan, females whose husbands were legally allowed to rape them in my lifetime wouldn't say they identified as women.

Ypubdont need to test
We Can tell with astonishing accuracy through secondary sexual characteristics.

Such as? Does this not run of the risk of classing masculine women as men?

My feminism connects me to the amazing women I grew up around. Mine was a matriarchal upbringing. I was surrounded by strong women who could do anything and did everything. And I went to a girl's school.

I saw how we had the shitty end of the stick. They saw it too and supported one another through very difficult times. Even if they didn't like eachother.💞

does a cow have to have 4 legs, a tail & eat grass?

does a tree have to have a trunk, branches and leaves?

does water have to be wet and have the chemical formula H2O?

How on earth can we define women??? I mean it’s just soooo hard

except it bloody isn’t when knowing who to ignore and who to wail beeeee kiiind at because I very much doubt the scoldy posters are over on piston heads lecturing men on their need to be kind

jesus Christ it’s fucking embarrassing

This is a really intellectually dishonest argument.

It means you have a female reproductive system and not a male one.

The existence of a small number of people with DSDs doesn't make the words male and female meaningless.

A woman with MRKH syndrome is, by definition, female. If she were male, not having a functioning uterus would be part of the design, not a medical condition.

Such as? Does this not run of the risk of classing masculine women as men?

That's what trying to define 'woman' in terms of 'gender' rather than sex does.

For me, the dictionary definition is a pretty sound one:

an individual of the sex that is typically capable of bearing young or producing eggs

Now that does NOT mean to say if you cannot conceive, or don’t have ovaries (wether it’s that she hasn’t been born with them or if they have been removed) that you aren’t a woman. When relating to biological sex, that detail of what you later do or don’t do in life is immaterial.

There are two sexes, and it’s no accident that for millennia one sex is the oppressor and one sex is the oppressed. And the root cause of the oppression is sex.

Unless we prove further, which we shouldn’t do as a rule, we can tell a person’s sex based on their genitalia. Those with a penis are not female. There are a tiny minority of intersex people who have ambiguous genitalia- that is NOT the same as identifying as a different ‘gender’. Wether they can later bear a child, and why, does not change that their external genitalia signifies their sex.