Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

I to worry about divisions

But I also see that the solutions to each problem - whilst often having a common cause - need to be different and reflect the current state of society

I see it as a chipping away at capitalistic patriarchal society from a lot of different angles to achieve the required changes

I would never say that a man can't be e feminist for example , I don't think that women are fundamentally better than men

@StreetwiseHercules

But who is making the “hands on dad” remark? Women. Men don’t really say that kind of thing about other men.

I'm not sure what your point is here?

I've never said that women aren't part of the society that is conditioned to see women as default caregivers. They are 50% of that society.

Some women also call other women 'slags' and men 'players' for doing the same thing, implying women having casual sex is shameful but men doing the same isn't. That doesn't mean society isn't conditioned to believe that women should be 'virtuous' while men can't help themselves etc.

Women and men both, more often than not, reflect the societal conditioning that leads to sex specific expectations and discriminations. For both sexes. One of the outcomes is male privilege.

That doesn't mean all men are bad and all women are good. Obviously.

As for "what do trans people do?" I'd say they should do what feminists do. Fight gender stereotypes, not reinforce them.

This is what feminism is fighting against. People who simply don't want to understand this. Girl doesn't like fluffy pink unicorns? Doesn't make her a boy. Boy does like fluffy pink unicorns? doesn't make him a girl

We had 2 little boys in DDs ballet class. One dsappeared for a few weeks because his dad didn't "want a ponce for a son". The other boy's dad showed him videos of Carlos Acosta. And he was allowed to come back. He's all grown up now and not gay and it's fine. He has great balance and athleticism and his football coach says it gives him an advantage. His dad is still a knob tho.

He's all grown up now and not gay and it's fine. He has great balance and athleticism and his football coach says it gives him an advantage. His dad is still a knob tho.

If he was gay that would be fine too!

I find it frustrating when people say someone ended up straight so people were wrong to be worried he would be gay.

People 'worrying' about their child being gay is the issue. Whether or not they turn out to be is irrelevant.

Not attacking you, it's just something that's said frequently and is frustrating.

I see tonnes of women out alone. I don't drive and spend a lot of time walking (alone) and on public transport. I imagine the area plays a factor here though so I don't think our individual experiences count for much in that regard. My area is what could be charitably referred to as rough as fuck.

That's interesting! I also don't drive and I walk and go round on public transport at all hours. My area is the exact opposite of rough, it's one of the safest imaginable. Yet I don't see women out alone and other women tell me they wouldn't and look at me a bit funny because I do.

People don't get physically attacked fishing (AFAIK!) but my experience is that as soon as a woman stops moving she gets hassle. And it doesn't take much of that to think "I was doing this for fun but I didn't enjoy it and it's not worth it" Though to be fair I get less of that now I'm older.

All that to say I don't think the over repsentation of men being the victims of assault and murder can solely be accounted for by saying "they go out more".

I agree with you on that, men are more likely to be victims overall and it's not just because men go out more. Women not being seen as a threat can be protective, it means we're not a target for that type of aggression.

I'd rather be raped than dead.

You really, really need to google. This is no time to be glib. You don't actually get to choose. Often, it is both.

extract
The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers have ranged up to 2 million.[11][12][13][14] According to historian William Hitchcock, in many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times.[15] At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[13] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath.[16] Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.[2][17] Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history" and concludes that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone.[18

www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

The reports are coming in from Ukraine, of Ukrainian women being gangraped and then murdered. I can link if it is necessary.

I'm not being glib. I am being honest.

I know all about what the Soviets did in Germany so I don't need to read your copy pasted article thanks. I have no idea why you are using something that happened nearly 100 years ago as an example. Is your point that Russians are more predisposed to rape or are you unaware that rape is a depressingly common weapon of war?

You are either being glib, or you are being irrelevant, and trying to throw a red herring in.

Because you don't get to choose whether a soldier rapes you or whether he rapes you first and then kills you.

I didn't think I had to spell that out earlier, being as it was before 6am, which is when my faith in other people's intelligence is at its peak.

Now you're trying to switch this to being offended on behalf of Russia, I think. I don't think anyone from any nationality is born "predisposed to rape", but I do know that the extent to which soldiers rape civilian women is affected by their country's cultural attitude towards rape and women's rights, and the senior officers' policy.

Like any other kind of institution, the attitude of management shapes what behaviour is acceptable in the most junior employees.

I was not being glib. I was being honest. I would rather be raped than killed.

If I was in Ukraine right now I would rather have daughters I could see off to Britain than sons to see off to the front line.

I wasn't accusing you of anti Russian sentiment. I was implying that you are ignorant to rape as a weapon of war if that is the worst example you can think of. It's not even the worst example during WW2. They call it the rape of Nanking for a reason.

Here's a more interesting and powerful counter argument you can use in future-

Globally more women have died for being women than men have died in all modern wars. That's statistically accurate.

Good point, Helleofabore. To YesJess, I'd say it's unhealthy to try to force your mind to have an inauthentic reaction, even if circumstances force you to hide your natural reaction for your own safety. I've come a long way from my old belief that men dressing as women were doing a good thing by breaking down gender expectations! Because of genderists' actions against women over the past few years, I find them deeply disturbing.

Anyone with any kind of moral compass knows it's dishonest to pretend to believe something you know to be untrue. Sometimes we do that to be polite, for reasons of kindness, to avoid 'punching down'. But when people with power use this to enforce compliance with their beliefs, they're the ones who are punching down. And they are punching us.

@Miffee

I don't think they were using the Russian forces as a 'worst' example, I think they were using it because the original discussion originated with a poster saying specifically that they'd rather be a woman than a man in ukraine at the moment.

Just seems really bizarre to me, I presume that they'll have none of the same soldiers on the front lines. But I hear they are desperate so you never know.

@Miffee I am glad to hear you mention Nanking. I think most westerners are not aware of how many were tortured and died. I think conscription is very hard on men. An alternative would be to conscript childless women, or allow father's to take care of children and send mothers instead. I don't really agree with conscription at all, but wonder if that would be fairer if a country must go to war.

I have been a feminist since the 70's, I have always described myself as a socialist feminist but these days prefer the term intersectional feminist as I accept all self identified women into my circle of care and also support the struggles of working class women and black women. I can't understand the attitudes of the middle class white women in the UK who sometimes seem to actively enjoy being anti-transgender, and quite gleeful in their dislike.

It's just all a bag of shit isn't it? I dunno maybe feminism is the answer. Let's try matriarchy it's got to be better than points at everything

How? How can you subscribe to socialism and deny the material reality of womanhood? How do you square that circle? Although given you just described working class women in a way that implies they are a minority I can't help but feel socialism is but a word to you.

Onomatopoeia. Or in other words : nothing

Most of the trans people I know well are young women presenting as transmen. I like them, I care about them and I worry for them. They are included in my feminism as are other groups of vulnerable women.

The only trans people I exclude from my feminism is transwomen, because they are male.

Feminism - y’know, for female people.

Yes.
I am all for women’s rights, acknowledging misogyny in all its forms including internalised misogyny and male privilege.
As a woman of colour I find trans women movements to be problematic, I also dislike that people think I should be okay with trans women just because I’m a woman of colour.

Feminism is dirty word in my community, many will say western white feminists are evil, racists etc but I am not seeing an alternative movement which tells me they feel threatened by feminists so want to try to tar them. Sadly lots of women I know have internalised this too.

Tell me you don't know what intersectional feminism means etc etc

I accept all self identified women into my circle of care

So "male women" and "female women"? Do you not think being born female is an axis of oppression in and of itself? If you actually were feminist, rather than just identifying as such, I think you'd see the problems inherent in downplaying and ignoring the needs of female people to organise and campaign for their own rights and protections.

Perhaps you should spend less time trying to make implications, and less time making weird inferences, and more time reading what other people actually type.

YesJess, said she didn't want to be a man in Ukraine right now, as part of a post saying that it wasn't that great to be male, and I was replying to her. The Russian army's past record with civilian women is thus directly relevant, as are reports of rape and murder coming out of the region right now, surely?

I don't think I've mentioned the destruction of Pompeii on this thread yet. Perhaps you'd like to assume I've not heard of that, too?

If I was in Ukraine right now I would rather have daughters I could see off to Britain than sons to see off to the front line.

pretty weird thing to say on a thread about feminism. How about not buying in to the sexual stereotypes of boys = soldiers, girls = refugees (especially since we know the Ukrainian army has lots of women)

So I was right, you were implying that Russians are more predisposed to rape.

I read what you typed I just thought it was asinine. Perhaps make better points?

I accept all self identified women into my circle of care and also support the struggles of working class women and black women.

Awesome. Then, as a working class woman who is the daughter of a woman who was incarcerated, you are right in with supporting me in the fight to make prisons single-sex again, yes?

<reads on>

Ah, that will be a no. Just a swipe at <yawns> "middle-class white women". To be honest with you, they're the ones least likely to disagree with you, according to polls and personal observation. But they're also the group of women it's most acceptable to publicly denigrate.

Here's some data for you about women in prison.