Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

Male privilege isn't just an intrinsic physical characteristic like having a nose. It's a set of social interactions and behaviours. If an individual doesn't have those then I'm thinking they may not have male privilege.

No it's not one physical characteristic. It's a set of markers that almost always (to the point that outliers are vanishingly rare) correctly indicate natal sex to other people.

That sex informs all social interactions throughout childhood and beyond. And I don't imagine anyone born female could spend their entire childhood presenting as male anywhere close to the level that society incorrectly sexes them and treats them as male accordingly.

And those formative years are a massively key part of male privilege.

Like, when I think of the overly effeminate 'queen' type of gay male persona, I think most people just find these individuals a bit comical.

Not at all being homophobic. It's defo a persona I've seen many times before, almost always with the exaggerated high pitched camp voice. It's as ridiculous as the overly exaggerated macho men you sometimes see, type that would non ironically wear a 'god's gift to women' t-shirt.

Male privilege means I guess that when all else is equal, even if life has been tough, of all the things a man worries about, being a woman isn't one of them.

Gay men will very likely experience issues and discrimination due to their sexuality. Which is awful. But they still have male privilege. Of all the things they have to worry about, being a woman (and the sex specific discrimination / issues / vulnerabilities women face) isn't one of them.

Just like white privilege doesn't mean you are privileged. Disabled people who are white face ableism but still have white privilege, because it just means that whatever difficulties or discrimination they face, not being white isn't one of them.

Every time a man looks after his own kids when their mum has a night out and the mum is called lucky, he is called a 'hands on dad' etc.

See also when a dad looking after his kids solo for any amount of time is described as "babysitting" them.

No offence, but these are just made up situations though. Like 'the feminist who shouted at me for holding the door open.'

I just don't encounter these attitudes you describe. I've only ever known men to be praised for doing these kind of things when they're doing it in addition to being the breadwinner. Finishing off his work late at night so he can take his son to football practice etc.

Just like white privilege doesn't mean you are privileged. Disabled people who are white face ableism but still have white privilege, because it just means that whatever difficulties or discrimination they face, not being white isn't one of them.

To be clear I should have put quotation marks on the word in bold to indicate I mean it doesn't mean you are "privileged" in the traditional sense e.g. rich, connected etc.

And as I said, that means on an individual level you haven't experienced it.

On a societal level I think it's undeniable.

I appreciate you may disagree and I'm heartened that someone hasn't experienced it.

I've never heard a mum who works full time and is good with her kids described as a 'hands on mum'. I have only heard it about men who work full time and are good with their kids.

And they aren't made up situations thanks, just because you haven't experienced them doesn't mean they haven't happened.

I believe you when you say you haven't individually come across them.

I'd appreciate it if you can take my words in good faith too and respect that I'm not making stuff up, I'm relaying my own experiences.

But I don't worry about being a woman. There are also plenty of times when the man is expected to step in and save the day. "Did you see that bloke over there just lay his hands on his missus? Do something about it, Fred!"

Silly example but I'm also looking at Ukraine and thinking I wouldn't want to be a man there right now. Also at American men having to sign up for the draft to get the state benefits we'd get for nothing. People always say it'd never actually be instated but it's never looked more likely in recent years than now. And with our current shaming/calling out culture I can absolutely see plenty of women handing out white feathers to those men 'too cowardly' to go and fight Russia/China/etc, just like they did in WW2.

Bit of a tangent that was, but I just don't really 'worry' about being a woman. I'm less likely to be beaten up, more likely to be helped by a stranger, won't be shamed for showing emotions, and can probs choose not to work if I don't want to. It's swings and roundabouts IMO.

Obv different story in India and many other places.

I know I've borrowed a few points off the 'angry incel list' there. 😂 But I do think there are female privileges too.

Another controversial opinion. If we could press a button to magically implement equality at work but with the cost of permanently abolishing SAHM/housewife roles, I think a lot of women would be reticent that we push that button.

Most of us are too socially aware to want to look like a kept woman, but there are loads of us who never really return to work and forever work part time leaving the stress to our husbands. Yes it's a financial risk yada yada yada but many women still do pretty well from the successful husband and his male privilege. We all know this.

But I don't worry about being a woman. There are also plenty of times when the man is expected to step in and save the day. "Did you see that bloke over there just lay his hands on his missus? Do something about it, Fred!"

You don't worry about being a woman, which is great. I keep saying though, male privilege / white privilege / able bodied privilege etc aren't about on an individual basis whether or not you personally experience something.

It's about wider society and the challenges faced in that society that are sex specific / race specific / ability and disability specific.

If a POC has never personally experienced racism, but a very large percentage of other POC have experienced it, does that mean white privilege doesn't exist? Surely you don't think that?

Bit of a tangent that was, but I just don't really 'worry' about being a woman. I'm less likely to be beaten up, more likely to be helped by a stranger, won't be shamed for showing emotions, and can probs choose not to work if I don't want to.

There are of course pros and cons to being both male or female. None of the cons of being male mean that male privilege doesn't exist. It means they don't experience the sex specific cons of being female.

Male privilege doesn't mean that men never experience hardships specific to being male, it simply means that they don't have to worry about the hardships specific to being a female.

I'm not sure how many other ways I can explain it but it might just be that it's late and I'm tired!

But I do think there are female privileges too.

Nobody has said there aren't.

They just don't mean that male privilege doesn't exist too...

You’ve never ever heard of a man being called a babysitter for looking after his own child?

But it’s all variables.

You’re also far more likely to get raped, murdered, beaten up by your partner, more likely to be paid less than your male colleague, more likely to face health discrimination. How many men have to worry about walking home after a night out?l in case they’re sexually assaulted or murdered

And yes maybe men are expected to do the (v well paid) heavy lifting jobs but it’s women doing arse wiping and care work for minimum wage.

If a woman is staying at home to raise children then yea I’d say men are privileged for them doing that - saving an unbelievable amount on childcare and also doing what is statistically best for a child. You may not be able to financially quantify the value of a SAHM it that doesn’t mean it holds no value at all. Why are men considered the heroes in this scenario?

I understand your point, and agree with it to an extent. But I also think a lot of women choose to be disadvantaged without realising it. I also think plenty of others moan about men having things which most women don't even want.

I hope I'm not being too overbearing but as somebody who drives trucks and operates heavy machinery daily I'm regularly frustrated by my office worker friends talking about 'not enough women in xyz sector' whilst not actually being prepared to put their best foot forward.

Same with all these stories about wolf whistling builders etc. Most of them are just pure fantasy and I've actually found the building/construction sector to generally be much less toxic than the corporate sector. But so many women nowadays seem to take all this stuff at face value rather than actually letting their experiences be the judge and it often seems like reality is defined by what people read on mumsnet or twitter. Half this stuff would disappear into obscurity overnight if the internet died IMO.

I've honestly never heard a man called a babysitter. The term conjures up a teenage girl tbh (because nobody trusts teenage boys to look after kids).

@YesJess

Same with all these stories about wolf whistling builders etc. Most of them are just pure fantasy

I have to take issue with this because I've repeatedly said that I believe and respect that you are being genuine in sharing your own experiences.

But you're basically saying that women who have experienced that a lot (cat calling, unwanted shouting about appearances, anger if you don't engage with someone not taking no for an answer despite them being a complete stranger etc) are lying.

I'm not lying.

You can't assume women are lying and sharing a 'fantasy' of their own imagination just because you haven't experienced it yourself.

My god daughter is 12. She's been wolf whistled and beeped at by adult men already. This isn't made up, it's real.

It's hard to believe someone is here in good faith if they are accusing other women of lying if they have different experiences.

So respectfully, please consider not doing that again.

But nobody is forcing those women to work in care. There's a huge deficit in truck drivers and anybody half competent can be earning £40k fairly quickly. I'm not even sure the better jobs require two years experience like they did a few years back.

And I thought women were murdered by the spouses mainly, not walking home at night. It's usually men who get stabbed and killed by strangers, beaten up for wearing wrong football colours etc. But don't want to get into a game of who has it worst.

The term conjures up a teenage girl tbh (because nobody trusts teenage boys to look after kids).

Which is very sad as it feeds into the societal expectations that girls and women should be the default caregivers of children.

But it's down to male behaviour - in this case the vastly higher offending rates of males when it comes to sex offences, so is an issue that can only be tackled by reducing male offending, which while women can campaign for, only men can do.

Your arguments all seem to very much be 'but xyz is hard for men' which means you're not getting that this isn't a race to the bottom. Nobody is saying life is a breeze for men. Nobody is saying they don't face any sex specific hardships.

Male privilege simply means that they don't face the hardships sex specific to women. I don't understand how you could disagree with that? It's a fact. It's not a value judgement on how easy or hard life is for individual men or women, or how many sex specific hardships individual men or women face. It simply acknowledges that the hardships are sex specific and that not experiencing those that women face = male privilege.

But don't want to get into a game of who has it worst

It's you who keeps mentioning male hardships whenever a female one is mentioned though?

As I said, this conversation shouldn't be a race to the bottom. It should, however, acknowledge sex specific differences.

I still think solving the maternity issue is the big thing, because we earn more up until 35ish and the few studies looking at childless female execs (one by The Economist) found they continued to be promoted more aggressively than their male counterparts.

So it seems to me like the career break is possibly the main issue. Even this I'm not so sure about as I know so many women who just didn't really seem to want to pursue the career thing so much once they had kids and the husband was doing well. For many it was like their priorities changed and they were also no longer in the position where they needed to work to have a good quality of life so they didn't. I know so many women happily working 2-3 days a week.

And I thought women were murdered by the spouses mainly, not walking home at night.

That poster specifically also mentioned that women are more likely to be beaten up by a partner. As you mentioned, they are also much more likely to be killed by a current or former partner. Two a week are.

When people say things like this, you reply with 'well men are killed too, and more of them are killed' but that isn't the point. Every individual death is a tragedy.

The point is that femicide by a partner is a sex specific crime to the point that two women are murdered every week by current or former partners.

That fact doesn't have to be countered or challenged with a male equivalent in a different situation.

It's a fact. Women are much more likely to be murdered by a partner than a man is. That is not the same as saying that women are more likely to be murdered full stop.

You're responding as if that's what people are saying. It isn't.

Your arguments all seem to very much be 'but xyz is hard for men' which means you're not getting that this isn't a race to the bottom. Nobody is saying life is a breeze for men. Nobody is saying they don't face any sex specific hardships.

It's you who keeps mentioning male hardships whenever a female one is mentioned though?

Because 'male privilege' doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's men being privileged when compared to women. So you can't really make that kind of statement about one sex without looking at the privileges and oppressions of the other.

I'm genuinely not sure you're willing or able to understand the concept but I gave it a good go despite you repeatedly saying that people's experiences they shared are fantasy or untrue aka lies.

I'm glad you enjoy your job and I'm glad that you haven't experienced the harassment etc that myself and others have shared. That's how it should be.

But your experience isn't universal and it's hard to believe you're here in good faith when you accuse others of making stuff up to suit their narrative.

I haven't and I wasn't.

Off to bed now as it's late, I hope if you read back posts you can understand the concept more and with less disbelief in other people's experiences.

I'm an American. It's really fascinating to watch posters on this site repeating things that I remember seeing online in the US starting around the 2016 election. Really odd to see the Selective Service gripe on here but I guess Quillette and Daily Caller are pretty popular in the UK. I have to laugh a little, we invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria without reinstituting the draft. SSA is a pretty clunky old program from the fifties, we don't have a nationwide system of tracking citizens. SSA was the first attempt at maintai
@YouAreNotBatman