Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

@Thepeopleversuswork @AgnestaVipers I suppose the nuclear family is extensively modelled as a means to perpetuate consumerism, arrange the workforce and society. I wonder how many people really choose the set up, because I am sure there must be some, and how many fall into it as a result of societal expectations and pressures. It's quite an insular arrangement when you think we probably once lived in a tribal community, where quite possibly nobody was sure who their father was. I believe that's why some ancient cultures were matrilineal, because one could be sure who somebody's mother was, but not their father.

The trans thing taps into this sense of our bodies as avatars that we can switch about and divorce ourselves from. It strikes me as a uniquely patriarchal perspective.

That's a really interesting point!

The trans thing taps into this sense of our bodies as avatars that we can switch about and divorce ourselves from. It strikes me as a uniquely patriarchal perspective.

I'm not sure if it's patriarchal. It is an absolutely bizarre thought however.

This rhetoric about being born in the 'wrong' body is so dangerous. Your body is you. There's no escape. No 'right' one you can hop into at whim.

What is peddled as a solution is still the same body, just further fucked up via hormones and surgery. I honestly don't know why this fallacy has taken hold of people do strongly.

So strongly

I agree, and I wonder if this division of things into separate parts, this alienation from the whole is endemic in the approach to knowledge and research, which may resonate with your points about men calling themselves rational and women emotional and also this comment on trans theories.

It is.

The concept of other people's existence being something that can be forcibly colonized, reframed, owned and the original indigenous peoples displaced, re educated into compliance and mastered is also fundamentally patriarchial.

I wonder if we've become so critical and unhappy with our bodies that the idea of 'escape' from them is enticing, despite being ridiculous. This would probably apply more to natal women transitioning than men however.

Quite! Trans colonisation of lesbian spaces, being a case in point. It's male colonisation- again.

This is Cartesian Dualism mixed with transhumanism. Descartes meets technology, in other words.

@gnilliwdog , the nuclear family strikes me as a good way of ensuring the progeny is truly yours. And of having the woman contained/constrained within the domestic sphere.

I have always been rather envious of the extended family, it-takes-a-village-to-raise-a-child mentality. Strikes me as being good for both mother and children.

I think the island of the nuclear family is another aspect of patriarchal categorising and separating. For instance, your reference to trans beliefs being like avatars suggests to me an alienation from the body, or a split between the body and mind. Similarly, I wonder if the enclosure of the family into a small unit suggests alienation from community or a split between the individual and others. Possibly.

The concept of other people's existence being something that can be forcibly colonized, reframed, owned and the original indigenous peoples displaced, re educated into compliance and mastered is also fundamentally patriarchial.

Definitely. This would make a great spin off thread.

The nuclear family exists in quite a few forms, grandparents living in the family home for example. It will never cease to be formative. IME, having an extended family makes a huge difference to women and children.

I am just adding this here. Considering one of the male athletes that were mentioned in an article posted about this finished third in the Commonwealth Games yesterday (commentators pointed out lack of fitness due to injury or illness so was not running at best times).

The misinformation about females with ‘high testosterone’ needs to stop. It is misinformation.

Here is some information about female testosterone levels.

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Therefore spreading this misinformation is dangerous and harmful to women with health conditions that have ‘high for female range’ testosterone.

It is harmful to spread misinformation that causes confusion about what the ‘female’ range is. Any female with levels as high as these male athletes, is gravely, gravely ill. It is associated with having particular types of tumors!

Here, Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this:

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in
99.99% of the female population

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Hopefully the image comes through. If not, here is where to find it.

twitter.com/unity_mot/status/1407697045897592834?s=21&t=uPQ1lmjk714Pni2i0cY8Lw

It is using data from this paper.

academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/803/5052770?login=false

Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance

David J Handelsman, Angelica L Hirschberg, Stephane Bermon

The ‘Semenya’ line is the level that Athletes competing in certain events were regulated to reduce their testosterone levels to. It is not the level Semenya’s testosterone sits normally. Which is male levels. The chart was also pointing out the discrimination in treatment between males with DSDs and transitioned males by sporting bodies.

Please stop spreading this misinformation that males with DSDs are ‘females with high testosterone’!

In all honesty, if you are doing it to be kind or inclusive, just how fucking inclusive is it to equate females with medical conditions with males?

How inclusive is it to obfuscate female medical conditions?

Look at who benefits from doing this and tell us all how feminist spreading this misinformation is.

Oh. And if you are a feminist who has been using this phrase ‘females with high testosterone’ and never once stopped to think about it, what else have you been repeating mindlessly and supporting without actually doing some proper research to support your arguments?

Please allow me to recommend the excellent book "Gender-Critical Feminism" by Holly Lawford-Smith. The book is well-written and refers to a lot of other good feminist authors of which I only knew a few beforehand. I am looking forward to reading some of the books she mentioned as they sounded very interesting.
Furthermore, TRAs have tried to "cancel" the author, so by buying this book you'll fight back against them.
If you do not have the extra money lying around to buy a book, you could always try to order it from your local library. If enough people do that, some libraries will buy the book. Win-win.

So, could a woman have male privilege then? Or am I misunderstanding?

I am extremely far left. Like, I think the solution is tearing down the entire fabric of society and completely changing the way we live.

This does sound a bit totalitarian to me though.

What happens to the people who don't want to tear down the fabric of our existing society?

No because as a group men in our society are raised to put their needs higher than women are, to judge failure as more likely to be because other people did something wrong and to feel entitled to have a voice, tell others what to do etc.

I meant the bit about privilege 'not just coming from looking like a man' and being more about socialisation nowadays.

It would surely follow that somebody who didn't look like man but had the right socialisation could experience male privilege. That's what you implied, perhaps unknowingly.

I'm also not sure we can generalise about men always putting their needs first tbh. There are plenty of princesses out there demanding their every need be met by the man. I was shocked when I browsed on my male mate's OLD profile. So many women actually use the 'I'm a princess' tag which you can put in the keywords section of your bio.

Men and women just seem to exert influence in different ways and even now plenty of women would rather the man be the breadwinner and take charge. This is very clear in much of the language - 'must be confident/know what he wants', 'looking for a traditional man' etc.

It would surely follow that somebody who didn't look like man but had the right socialisation could experience male privilege. That's what you implied, perhaps unknowingly.

Someone who has experienced childhood, tween, teen and any adult years looking like and being perceived by society as a male will have male privilege. It's not an insult to an individual. It's a simple fact. From the expectations of their personality (boys are leaders of the pack, similar girls are called 'bossy') to education (girls are far more likely to be harassed or assaulted at school and that affects their experience of school years) to day to day life (again boys have to worry far, far less about being harassed, cat called, attacked by someone far bigger and stronger than them - please not I'm not saying boys are at no risk I'm saying they have advantages afforded by their male appearance and their male physical strength), to dating (boys and men are less likely to be judged for enjoying casual sex than women, who can be ostracised and name called if they do exactly the same as men)... etc etc.

Male privilege doesn't always become male entitlement, but a man cannot transition out of male privilege.

And a trans man cannot spend the duration of their childhood being treated like a male, as they wouldn't appear to be male until for example teen years.

Hope that makes sense, not sure I've explained it perfectly but have tried

I think you've misunderstood a bit here.

The poster wasn't saying "all men do xyz" and "all women do abc".

They were saying that society is built around men being conditioned that it's ok to put themselves first and women being conditioned to put others first.

And that that disparity on a system level affects everyday life for everyone, even if they haven't individually succumbed to that conditioning.

Every time a man looks after his own kids when their mum has a night out and the mum is called lucky, he is called a 'hands on dad' etc, that's a reflection of society having taught people on a systemic level that women should be expected to parent while men should be congratulated for it. That doesn't mean the individual dad is a prick at all. It's a reflection on society.

A woman having a holiday with her friends when her child is still a baby (even if not breastfed) raises more eyebrows than a man doing the same.

A woman who goes back to work quickly after having a baby is thought of by many (not all) as selfish or not maternal, while no such judgement is made of men even when the couple earn equal amounts. Again, that doesn't make any of the people directly involved 'bad' or entitled. It's just a reflection of the entitlement afforded to males in society, as they aren't expected to prioritise children over their career for example. Some do and if they do, they're praised much more than women who do the same.

I think it's a good explanation. That said, I still struggle to view all TW as having male privilege. Male privilege isn't just an intrinsic physical characteristic like having a nose. It's a set of social interactions and behaviours. If an individual doesn't have those then I'm thinking they may not have male privilege.

I defo see plenty of TW that do though. The ones with the self important attitude who expect everybody to listen to them. I'm glad I work in a job where I'm not at all affected by it.

I’m not a feminist: I’m an egalitarian. Feminism is not good enough in my view and is a divisive and supremacist ideology.

I believe in respect and fairness for all, and I don’t factor sex into that. Men and women are just as likely as one another to be really good people or to be complete arseholes. I am not interested in the tribalism of feminism and it irritates me how feminism seeks so often to matronise and infantilise women.

Every time a man looks after his own kids when their mum has a night out and the mum is called lucky, he is called a 'hands on dad' etc, that's a reflection of society having taught people on a systemic level that women should be expected to parent while men should be congratulated for it. That doesn't mean the individual dad is a prick at all. It's a reflection on society.

See also when a dad looking after his kids solo for any amount of time is described as "babysitting" them.

You'd never hear someone say that about a mum looking after their joint kids solo. And I've never heard the phrase "she's such a hands on mum" because society expects mums to be hands on parents, whereas men are praised for it.