Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

Exactly. There may still be certain privileges tw hold for example having a loud and commanding voice may make them more easily heard than a female in a workplace setting (which is why it's important that we each recognise the ways we could be acting that are harmful to others who are vulnerable including tw being aware of their own behaviours). But equally there are privileges some women hold over others due to finances, geography, family support, ethnicity etc... I think it's important to include issues around oppression in how we frame feminism because that's how we make feminism equitable instead of equal.

The second Kevin from Accounts rocks up to work in high heels and a skirt, or mentions that he's 'Anastasia' on a Saturday night, his male privilege takes a huge nosedive in terms of prospects etc.

There is a long list of other things Kevin could do which may or may not affect his job prospects depending on circumstances. I can also give you a long list of workplaces where transitioning would be an advantage. And a long list of males whose career hasn't been harmed at all. It's gone well for Phil/Pippa Bunce, for example.

Are you seriously trying to claim that Kevin the cross dressing accountant is now oppressed? When he can stop wearing a skirt tomorrow and immediately go back to having male privilege?

If Kev turns up dressed head to toe in black wearing a silver pentagram and says he's a goth, has he lost his male privilege?

The second Kevin from Accounts rocks up to work in high heels and a skirt, or mentions that he's 'Anastasia' on a Saturday night, his male privilege takes a huge nosedive in terms of prospects etc.

But this isn't because Kevin is female, it's because Kevin is trans, so why is it something that feminists should include in their feminism?

TW won't experience the same male
Privileges - although they will have been trained with those as children so naturally be more assertive and less likely to take a back seat for example

But that doesn't make them women and it doesn't make their problems the same a woman's

Which means that systems put in place to help women - like single sex spaces or sports - need to stay that way - with further accommodations for TW/TM added into systems if needed

I'd say the vast majority of women will be less othered than a TW in pretty much every workplace. Women in offices/professional environments is hardly a rarity nowadays, and the type of workplaces that are typically male dominated are likely to be even more intimidating for a TW (building sites etc).

So what ?

I'm not a fan of using the mostly useful concept of privilege at an individual level anyway. I think it makes it meaningless. Beyoncé is a black woman, but she is superrich and lives a very comfortable life. Black people as a class and women as a class are structurally oppressed in society, to a greater or lesser extent dependent on place and time.

So they don't really experience male privilege.

I'm not a fan of using the mostly useful concept of privilege at an individual level anyway.

I don't think anybody is doing that though.

Trans women have another set of discrimination to face at work.

None of which means that discrimination is the same type of discrimination as that women face.

That isn't a value judgement - nobody should experience discrimination at work.

What does the discrimination trans women face have to do with the discrimination that women face?

You say trans women are going to be more victimised that women when it comes to discrimination.

None of this means the discrimination trans women face something that would be a feminist concern. Because it's due to them being a trans woman, not due to them being a woman. There's no feminist angle to that.

I'd say the vast majority of women will be less othered than a TW in pretty much every workplace. Women in offices/professional environments is hardly a rarity nowadays, and the type of workplaces that are typically male dominated are likely to be even more intimidating for a TW (building sites etc).

Women of childbearing age are frequently discriminated against. Pregnant women are frequently discriminated against. Women going through the menopause are frequently discriminated against.

None of these things apply to MTF trans people.

Not that it is top trumps. They have their issues, but they aren't the only issues in the world that are important, contrary to some people's opinion, and most importantly they have little to do with women and girls.

don't think anybody is doing that though

You are doing it with everything you say.

It's nonsense that MTF trans people don't have male privilege. A lot of them transition late in life when they've already benefited from a good career, have money etc. IME most are convinced that women should drop everything to centre them and coddle them, like many other males. They've been socialised that way. Whereas women are in general socialised to put others first and "be kind".

I disagree.

My points apply to the majority of TW.

It probably depends on the workplace... in some, Kev, sorry Anastasia, will be lauded and become someone others don't dare criticise.

It probably depends on the workplace... in some, Kev, sorry Anastasia, will be lauded and become someone others don't dare criticise.

Exactly.

Discrimination against pregnant women/women of childbearing age is realistically because businesses want staff that are going to be there working and because they often ultimately care more about revenue than political correctness, which is a difficult problem to solve. Trans discrimination is maybe more akin to homophobia/racism.

But, yes, I agree that TW don't experience maternity discrimination. I still think they're more othered than women and miles behind most men in the innate privilege stakes.

Wtf are we talking about hypothetical Kev rather than feminism? How the heck does this happen? Can we change the subject and talk about women and girls and issues which are unambiguously the domain of feminism? If not... why not?

But, yes, I agree that TW don't experience maternity discrimination. I still think they're more othered than women and miles behind most men in the innate privilege stakes.

I disagree. As I said, it doesn't help to break privilege down to the individual level, as I pointed out you were doing. Women are structurally oppressed to a greater or lesser extent the world over, for obvious reasons. "People who look different" isn't a coherent category.

This is probably horribly un-PC, but I'm often a bit creeped out by many TW, despite knowing it's wrong and consciously fighting it/trying to ensure it doesn't bias my actions. I guess this is likely social conditioning. It's often like the uncanny valley effect for me.

This is probably horribly un-PC, but I'm often a bit creeped out by many TW, despite knowing it's wrong and consciously fighting it/trying to ensure it doesn't bias my actions. I guess this is likely social conditioning. It's often like the uncanny valley effect for me.

Delving deeper into why many of these male people "transition" isn't exactly going to help with that, that's all I am going to say.

Certainly in some progressively woke/creative type environments, but not I daresay in the majority of corporate workplaces. And in many, I think there will be something akin to a glass ceiling whereby they reach a stage where progression is in the hands of a middle aged white male with traditional values.

Ok, this has been an interesting discussion but I've got to be up at 4am tomorrow to fire up the plant and I've just seen the time. So I must say my goodbyes for now.

Well, unless anyone is collecting accurate data (which I doubt), the fate of hypothetical Kev is all speculation and opinion.

Someone mentioned structural sexism just upthread. Trying to find ways to counter that is the sort of thing feminism means to me.