Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

People only talk about trans murders because trans activists claim it is singularly dangerous to be a trans person and they are risking death every time they set foot outside. It's not true, and I will challenge these claims every time they are made. Femicide is a problem in this country, and yes if you break it down you can look at relevant factors like demographic groups. But middle class women are part of the sex class as a whole who are vulnerable to intimate partner murder. That's just reality.

I am so sorry that happened to you. Thank you for replying.

Thank you

My point is that for the purposes of argument they should fall under the banner of men, unless we're also going to split female victims into sub categories.

Where would it end?

"Don't worry, she was the only ginger haired, Irish woman identifying as pansexual to have been killed in the last decade, so women need not worry." 🤷‍♀️

One might even use the words victim mentality to describe this idea that male transitioners are targeted for violence more than anyone else...

My point is that for the purposes of argument they should fall under the banner of men, unless we're also going to split female victims into sub categories.

Yes no argument from me, what I am challenging when I talk about them is that they are especially at risk. Also if you tried to claim that they should be with women because they are more at risk as men I would challenge that too.

The single biggest predictor of being murdered is being male.

I'm happy for them to be counted "under the banner of men", yes.

You will find it interesting to find out how many transwomen have been murdered in the UK in the last ten years, and then to find out how many transwomen have been convicted of murder, or attempted murder over the same period.

Yes.

My point is that if we're going to point out that transwomen aren't the men most likely to experience violence, then it's fair to point out that educated middle class women aren't the women most likely to experience it either.

What does that mean though? It's okay if middle class women do experience violence? They're collateral damage?

You will find it interesting to find out how many transwomen have been murdered in the UK in the last ten years, and then to find out how many transwomen have been convicted of murder, or attempted murder over the same period.

Indeed.

Are you saying that trans people are not subject to homicide?

Transgender Europe is a network of different organisations that aim to combat discrimination against trans people and support trans people's rights.

According to Transgender Europe, the total murders reported for the United Kingdom since 2008 (so 14 years) amounted to 11.

The same number of women are killed the equivalent of every six weeks in the UK.

This is not to say that each individual murder isn't a tragedy that should never have happened. It is always a tragedy and should never happen.

This is not a race to the bottom. I'm simply trying to get across the scale of one awful set of murders in comparison to the other.

Femicide poses more risk to more people and two women every week are victims.

To dismiss this with 'Are you saying that trans people are not subject to homicide?' when quite literally nobody has ever said no trans people ever get murdered, is an insult to victims of femicide and their loved ones.

Yup. Bingo. That's exactly what it means. 🙄

How on earth did you reach that conclusion?

How on earth did you reach that conclusion?

well, why dismiss them them, don't they count?

Oh for the love of sweet furry animals from Alpha Centuri. Yeah, it pretty much is.

Stop digging. This working class woman is telling you to stop. In your attempts to go after the white middle-class women it's acceptable and fashionable to dismiss, you have implied that white men are less violent than other ethnicities of men, and you've even valorised white middle-class males. At this rate you will be through to Australia by 4am.

Go to bed.

My point is that if we're going to point out that transwomen aren't the men most likely to experience violence, then it's fair to point out that educated middle class women aren't the women most likely to experience it either.

Has any poster said, at any point, that educated middle class women are the women most likely to experience violence?

If not (which they haven't) then what is your point here?

Are you saying that if we haven't experienced something ourselves (many of us have, including me) then we shouldn't speak up about the topic?

So able bodied people fighting for the rights of disabled people shouldn't do so, because if they haven't been victims of discrimination due to disability?

Young people fighting for better standards of living for the elderly shouldn't do so, because they haven't experienced a drop in living conditions that is directly linked to being elderly?

White people shouldn't campaign against racism as they haven't experienced being the victim of racism?

Having the support of people who aren't in the direct demographic affected by something is vital in fighting for change because the minority needs the support of the majority in order for change to occur at a systemic level.

Stop digging. This working class woman is telling you to stop. In your attempts to go after the white middle-class women it's acceptable and fashionable to dismiss, you have implied that white men are less violent than other ethnicities of men.

Well, statistically speaking, they are. Although that wasn't my main point and I'm not saying that it's inherent as opposed to caused by socioeconomic factors, etc.

As feminists often say, people shouldn't be annoyed about this as we're just presenting the facts. If you're a non violent man then you're not the problem.

So a woman is anyone who is overlooked in the workplace - you're collapsing all categories of oppression? There is no difference between a black man and a white woman? or a disabled man and a woman? Or do you mean overlooked because they are a woman? but that would be a problem for your definition because most people don't think TW are women in any real terms so if they're overlooked in the workplace it's not because they're seen as a woman. Can you provide any evidence that TW even are overlooked in the workplace? And TW don't still have male privilege even if they still look exactly like man? And a woman who does not bother with beauty sterotypes is not really a woman? or less of a woman than other women? If a man is a single parent he has childcare issues and so he's a woman?

According to your definition of woman, it is only about oppression. So if we get rid of oppression is everyone a man or is everyone a woman? Clearly there can be no differentiation then when we sort out the beauty industry and properly share childcare.

No-one is suggesting most trans people fake being trans but there is also nothing to suggest that Rachel faked being black. It was her true identity. That doesn't stop it being offensive though.

Yes me too. Equal does not mean TW in female spaces though.

Not at all for me whether someone 'passes' or not shouldn't matter a jot. Those are just two examples of where I think tw fit within feminism because of the overlap with the issues they experience. In terms of the toiletries example I know plenty of women choose not to use items targeted at women because they're more expensive and sometimes worse quality as well but the fact its marketed that way towards women is oppressive in itself. For me it's about the daily privilege that men live with that women don't and a lot of tw are also affected by that whether it be beauty stereotypes, childcare issues, being over looked in the workplace etc etc I don't think that non trans men have those same experiences. But I believe that tw do following transition and I don't believe that it's just because they are trans. As for what you personally identify with I can't really say because I don't know you but I feel like all those issues affect us all in some way but not men.

I think you touch on some interesting points here.

People are often very quick to assimilate TW with typical males when talking about male privilege, but very quick to paint them as 'a different type of man' when discussing male victims of violence etc.

Realistically, I don't think a man dressed as a woman, or clearly presenting as a non typical male, is going to experience the same privileges in a job interview as the typical blokey bloke who plays golf/rugby etc and gives off 'old boys club' vibes.

And agender and pangender

People are often very quick to assimilate TW with typical males when talking about male privilege, but very quick to paint them as 'a different type of man' when discussing male victims of violence etc.

Who is doing this? I see them the same way as all males. No more, no less.

Just like other non-typical men then? no evidence at all of that being the same basis as oppression as for women

What's an "actual" woman?

But they're clearly very different from most males.

The second Kevin from Accounts rocks up to work in high heels and a skirt, or mentions that he's 'Anastasia' on a Saturday night, his male privilege takes a huge nosedive in terms of prospects etc. Bosses want somebody who mirrors their clients (usually white middle aged men), hence why POC, women, camp men, and basically any 'othered' demographic will often be bottom of the list. People won't admit it but most recognise it nonetheless.