Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

Certainly in some progressively woke/creative type environments, but not I daresay in the majority of corporate workplaces

Not just creative environments, the public sector, and whole swathes of captured industries. What you're missing is that these people aren't always meek, downtrodden people. They are used to getting their own way.

Someone mentioned structural sexism just upthread. Trying to find ways to counter that is the sort of thing feminism means to me.

Me too. And no, there are vested interests in accurate data about sex and gender not being collected.

I struggle with feminism tbh, despite actually sharing many of the outlooks. Or more accurately, I struggle with a lot of feminists. I've found that the best way to deal with many of the frequently stated obstacles is just to ignore them and do what I want. Driving trucks, operating heavy machinery, working in construction sector, etc. I just ignore what people say women 'should do' and do what I want, and it's largely worked out for me.

But of course I appreciate that I speak only for myself and countless women have been blocked/discriminated against despite their best efforts. But I defo meet lots of women who self impose limitations which need not necessarily be there, and many seem to blame this on men/the patriarchy which kind of becomes a self fulfilling prophecy if you don't fight it.

Oddly, I've found a lot of 'male' jobs to be less problematic in some surprising ways. For example, when I worked in an office I often felt that my male colleagues would get more recognition for doing the exact same things as myself, or could more easily convince people of their competence/gain trust and recognition.

It's different in my current sector. If I consistently get back 30 mins earlier then Dave when doing the same run as him then I'm objectively seen as quicker. If I can usually back the truck under the loading chute first attempt then people stop the 'women drivers' jokes pretty quick.

I don't disagree with a lot of the things you are saying. But I have always been a feminist, and nothing has brought home the differences between how seriously men and women are taken, and who matters, quite so much as the trans debate.

@Cw122

I have found your contributions interesting. And I respect you for trying to find a compassionate compromise.

I however do take issue with a few points:

• I think women who are female need a word for that. To be honest, I think that lots of us would be much more civil about TW if we weren't seeing, as well as "woman" being appropriated, "female" being appropriated. We want a word we can use to designated certain spaces and experiences that are ours. For example, a lot of females experience shame when they get their period, are hassled by men around this time, find puberty traumatic in a very specific way - we need a word that helps us discuss this. Menstruators is unacceptable. It is dehumanising. Unfortunately, we keep being told that having our own word for the experience of having a female body is exclusionary. What is your view on this?

• If I could use "female" and hive off the things that are specific to females, I'd be happy to discuss "woman" experiences that include TW. I'd expect them to be much smaller subset, tbh. Most TW transition late - they are pretty unlikely to be burdened by female level childcare expectations (which you seemed to suggest they would), caring for elderly relatives, pregnancy discrimination, experiencing postpartum complications, female health issues, miscarriage, menopause, breastfeeding - these are all things that I discuss with my female friends. Obviously not all women experience all of them, but there is a decent part of the Venn diagram of "woman" that is female and likely to be trans exclusionary by its nature. (Safety is a possible crossover: to be honest most trans women don't pass and for those that don't the threat will often be in a different form to that that women face, but I have no issue including TW in a basic discussion of male patterns of violence and safety. I am happy to discuss third spaces on their behalf if it advances the cause).

• I think that your view probably stems from seeing a lot of very vulnerable TW in your service. There is nothing wrong with this view, but it is a bit limited (naive even), because the reality is that who you are talking about when you say "TW are women" is what we might have called "transsexual" a while ago. The trans category now includes cross dressers and AGP individuals - Would you still see these people as "women", particularly if they are only women for part of the week? You seem to desperately want the sexual crimes statistics not to be true - I understand that this is because of what you see in your service, but the reality is that a lot of what the rest of us see is not what you see. And not what is borne out in statistics in the U.K. - TW are the focus of hate crime largely from men, but the threat level is lower than that for women in terms of sexual assault or death and unfortunately the rate of violent/sexual offending of TW more closely matches that of males not females.

• personally, I don't really see TW as women, if what is meant is a proxy for having female experiences. I think that what informs my view on this is very specific - I would very willingly give up wearing "feminine" clothes, make up, etc like a shot - literally the only reason I don't wear jogging bottoms all the time is because it is socially required, in effect, not to (particularly in a professional job). I am female - it is the path of least resistance to present as feminine, but I really don't give a shit about it beyond fitting in and making an effort on special occasions for my husband (he loves me in jogging bottoms, luckily!). This puts me very much in a different place to a lot of TW, who often really prize all that stuff as a trapping of womanhood. There really is nothing wrong with this at all - I don't dislike feminine stuff for any moral reason, I just don't connect with it. Trans ideology would like to put me in a "non-binary" or "non-woman" pile , but I am not - I'm just a woman who doesn't fit with stereotypes. Therefore, I really don't see much of myself in the average TW, so there isn't much crossover for me in my feminism save for male violence, which is important but not the whole story.

What I am saying is that sometimes TW are largely irrelevant to certain feminist issues (which is probably why some TRAs have started using "female" because they know this.

Well said @morescrummythanyummy Having worked in mental health and in the prison service (briefly) it really worrries me that it has become verboten to even mention that crossdressers often (always?) are looking for a sexual thrill and they want women to provide this. We used to all know this! Why are we pretending that it is not true? And why on earth are we being asked to pretend that they ARE women?? It is beyond insulting. And yes, I know "not all tw are crossdressers" but we are being told that it's all the same. It's infuriating. I could say more but I don't want to get banned.

One might even use the words victim mentality to describe this idea that male transitioners are targeted for violence more than anyone else...

Well, we see the phrase ‘most vulnerable and marginalised’ used so often it certainly has built that immediate reaction in some people.

It is the power of that coupling of words being repeated constantly across the world.

That coupling of words has been very successful.

"Gender is the enemy of feminism"
Thank you for that! @ babyjellyfish

Might this quote from Lionel Shriver’s article in the Spectator help you to understand why.

We’re on perilous ground when we mainstream bald-faced lies. We’re being asked to lie to ourselves and to each other, as well as to deny our shared perceptions of the material world.

When we are told males can be women and even females (not just present like, but ‘are’), and we, personally, see this as untrue, why do you expect to be comfortable with it?

Yes, that sums it up very well in a general sense.

Probably not anymore and if I am I'm a Marxist feminist with an emphasis on the Marxist.

I was a Rad Fem but realised I don't want to centre women in my politics. I think a lot of issues women face are a symptom of a bigger disease. I don't want to treat the symptoms.

Oh and I am sick of the overstated harm of all the TW stuff, women face bigger threats. The single issue focus does seem to be an online thing though so it wouldn't turn me off entirely.

morescrummy

excellent post, pretty much where i stand on this issue

Notice how the men get to make the thread about feminism all about them.

Interesting. What bigger disease? And what is the cure?

It's right there in the quote. I lean Marxist.

I am extremely far left. Like, I think the solution is tearing down the entire fabric of society and completely changing the way we live. Achieving that is terriffying. Overall I feel pretty hopeless and have to constantly fight off a slide into nihilism. It's not a political stance that appropriate for combative online debate.

I think most of the problems women face in the UK can be traced directly back to capitalism and the ones that can't are reinforced by it. I think the majority of men are equally albeit differently fucked due to the same system. That's why I don't know if I would describe myself as feminist anymore.

Yes of course not sure why any woman wouldn't be.

It means supporting the rights of women and by this I mean females.

No one should suffer harm and no one should blame an entire group for a few peoples actions. So when Muslim terrorists attack innocent people we don't blame Muslims we blame the terrorists. When men attack women we don't blame men we blame the men that attack women. When trans women attack women we don't blame trans women just those attacking. Does that make sense?

Not sure what the relevance of your post is to my quote.

I never said anything didn't make sense to me.

When men attack women we don't blame men we blame the men that attack women. When trans women attack women we don't blame trans women just those attacking.

What we do, as feminists, is recognise that there is a problem with male violence towards women, grounded in gender stereotypes, societal misogyny and the millennia-old dominance of men over women.

No one should suffer harm and no one should blame an entire group for a few peoples actions. So when Muslim terrorists attack innocent people we don't blame Muslims we blame the terrorists.

No one is blaming all TW for the actions of TW offenders. However there is no way of differentiating between the two when it comes to access to sex segregated spaces.

Equally there are vulnerable women who will be triggered by the presence of a male body in a sex segregated space, even if that TW is totally well meaning.

The conflict of rights is real. Which is why TW need to campaign for their own third spaces.

@Miffee I see your point. I tend to see capitalism as stemming from patriarchy, however, a system which began with the concept of ownership. I imagine when humans settled and started to own land there was a shift to owning women. This led to monotheistic religions which places the male at the top of a hierarchy and informs values, then laws. The domination of values such as conquest, colonialism and control correlate to the acts of rape and subjugation, I tend to think. I have been fascinated by statues recovered from Mesolithic of apparently pregnant women, which obviously had some significance and possible sacredness in their time.

I can definitely appreciate and respect that view, also you can see horrific oppression of women removed from capitalism globally and historically but it isn't universal. That's why I say I'm not sure rather than I'm not. I don't have an issue with feminism I just don't think I subscribe to it any more.

No one should suffer harm and no one should blame an entire group for a few peoples actions. So when Muslim terrorists attack innocent people we don't blame Muslims we blame the terrorists.

But this isn't really the point, is it?

Male people don't belong in female spaces whether they are dangerous sex offender or absolutely lovely and wouldn't hurt a fly.

@Miffee I think Marxist ideas aim for equality of the sexes, but Marx himself didn't have a lot to say about women. I think he was still coming from a male centred perspective. I regard hierarchy as a patriarchal tactic to create order, and believe even socialism relies upon it. I think I connect more with women's liberation, that is freedom from an indoctrinated system that is crap for the majority, than feminism at the moment. That could change!