Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

It doesn’t mean their sex is a woman, but they also can’t change their sex. So presenting in traditionally gender-specific clothes is the next best thing, I’d imagine.

I’d be very surprised if any of my posts on what gender looks like is news to anyone.

It's not the next best thing, it's a completely different thing.

Wouldn't it make more sense to come up with a different word to describe what they think they are living as?

Answer: yes it would. But then they wouldn't be able to argue that they are the same as women and should be entitled to access women's spaces.

Just as a white woman I need to listen and learn from the women of colour who have spoken about their needs because I recognise that they are different to mine. It's my responsibility to go away and educate myself at the end of the day so of course I'm not saying it's anyone's obligation to educate anyone but themselves.

So isn't the onus on trans women to educate themselves on the experiences and needs of natal women in order to understand those needs and necessary provisions?

Rather than calling women transphobic for saying no, you do not experience life as a woman, you experience life as a trans woman.

Take Rachel Dolezal. Would you tell a woman of colour that she should educate herself about what led to Rachel Dolezal faking being black? Or would you much more sensibly and fairly not do that and instead tell Rachel Dolazel she should educate herself on why women of colour reacted the way they did when they found out she faked being black? The latter, hopefully.

It’s not a completely different thing though. We live in a society that sees pink/floral/makeup as female.

Your view is very old fashioned. Lots of boys wear make up and lots of girls wear heavy boots and jeans without being trans

I’d say no, but the vast majority of trans women are not doing that. And I don’t live in the 50s, I live in 2022 where the social construct of gender exists. Where do you live that it doesn’t?

In the real world where there are numerous women around me that don't wear make up or dresses, that have short hair or shaved heads, that don't like pink and glitter, that do a range of jobs including constructions worker, farmer etc, have a range of interests that include motorcycling, football...basically all those things backwards people think make someone a man.

A male person living in a male body who wears dresses and makeup is not living in the same way as a female person living in a female body who doesn't wear dresses and makeup. They are the literal opposite of each other. To say they are both living as a woman leads to the inevitable conclusion that living as a woman doesn't actually mean anything.

Not to mention that male people who don't wear dresses and make up and look exactly like any other male people also demand their woman gender identity is respected. Because this ideology is a lightning rod for people who want power and like to gaslight people.

I don't.

Why reify restrictive stereotypes for women and men?

I’m not saying they don’t.

Wouldn't it make more sense to come up with a different word to describe what they think they are living as?

Answer: yes it would. But then they wouldn't be able to argue that they are the same as women and should be entitled to access women's spaces.

YY.

@Cw122 I think your suggestions for separate trans support in DV shelters, rape crisis etc could work. They would have to have their own funding and not diminish the service for the women it was originally created for though. I would think trans men should still be able to access female groups as well as trans groups and the same for trans women, I suppose. You would also need to consider the different training for staff involved. DV shelters for women are probably also knowledgeable about pregnancy and child protection. If you want to add specialised DV options for trans people I suppose staff would need to understand the obstacles faced by them. Ultimately I think you run the risk of diluting what is a very specialised service to cater to different groups, and that could affect funding and resources. I am not sure the campaigns for trans women should be fought for as feminist rights at all, I must say. I think women are oppressed largely because of their biology, and trans people largely because of their identity.

It would be news if anyone gave a proper definition but welcome news I think as then one proper conversations can start. You seem to be saying that wearing make up makes you a woman? Which means loads of guys who are not trans are women and loads of women are men. Not sure we need prisons segregated by whether you wear make up or not though.

@Pumperthepumper

It doesn’t mean their sex is a woman, but they also can’t change their sex. So presenting in traditionally gender-specific clothes is the next best thing, I’d imagine.

Absolutely, I agree.

Which is my point was that they cannot be a woman when it comes to their sex.

Yet we are called transphobic by many TRAs if we state this simply fact: "People cannot change sex".

We are told that trans women are women because they have an innate sense of 'knowing' they are a woman.

When in reality it is a desire to possess superficial and stereotypical markers of gender identity.

I think you agree with that factually, I'm not being argumentative so apologies if it comes across that way.

Just pointing out this is why the conflation of sex and gender, frequently pushed by TRAs as synonymous, shows why language is so important.

Someone can adopt gender stereotypes. But as you said, they cannot change sex.

Some people earlier have said they maybe feel that tw are excluded because they are trans specifically? Is that what you mean? I think that's definitely a part of it but I think there's other elements that are specific to living as a woman as well that affect them. I think the best example of this is if someone who wouldn't be perceived as trans to the eye of the beholder is walking home alone at night I still feel that the tw in that scenario is more likely to be harassed or made to feel unsafe just as I might be in that situation. Whereas a large, muscular bearded trans man might be left alone to get home in peace. That's where I think there are overlaps in the experience of living as a woman and if someone is attacking a transwoman because they perceived them to be female and therefore vulnerable then that's problematic from a feminist perspective. Similarly transwomen from a consumer perspective may be more inclined to purchase items that are marketed and targeted at women while being marked up in price compared to the same version of the item targeted at male buyers. To me all of those nuances fit within feminism and the discrimination we face that we shouldn't have to.

No. That’s the complete opposite of what I said. Biology makes you a woman. Gender stereotypes make you feminine.

I'm meaning we as in community provision that's been traditionally female only such as domestic violence charities, homeless shelters etc. As a community worker that's the filter I'm thinking about this through.

No, the female sector should not be providing for these males. I wouldn't donate to any female charity which did. They have their own funding streams, they can use them.

Are you saying you only accept TW who pass as women? If not, what's the commonality of experience or perception with a the muscular bearded TW? I think TW might be more likely to buy more expensive toiletries but lots of women don't. So let me phrase the question differently. As a non cis biologicL female who does not buy expensive toiletries what do I have in common with a TW (most of whom do NOT pass) that I don't have in common with other men?

If it's all about how much ther perceive you due to clothing etc then can a person that lives a hermit lifestyle be a woman?

Others* wish we had an edit button

Fucked that up.

Can a transwoman be a woman if there is no one around to perceive them as being a woman?

Firstly I am a guy. Just want to put it out there early!

I wouldn't say I'm a feminist, I am a humanist. I believe ALL people should be treated with the same respect, decency and value regardless of any characteristic. I was a feminist in my 20s though the term has been hijacked and taken over by a vocal band of shouty people and its not really something I'd say I am nowadays.

I believe that women should be treated fairly and as consistently as men. That means:

• Same pay for the exact same hours, competency and commitment to a job.
• Exact same access to children and custody of children
• Exact same healthcare standards and outcomes
• Exact same consideration in domestic violence cases where they are victims (including coercive control)
• The right to take child-care leave for the exact same time as women post-birth
• If we were to ever go to war and be enlisted, I would expect that men and women have to go to war in equal numbers.

I think these are fairly standard wants for any feminist.

At the same time with rights come responsibilities and I believe that both men and women MUST take responsibilities that come with rights. Again that shouldn't be controversial.

I have no opinion on trans-women; I am not a trans-person and the whole conversation is toxic, hysterical and mythical on both sides.

It's possible to say some of these male people have some limited shared experience with women but it not mean that we have to coddle them, fawn over them, centre them in everything to our own detriment, always give them the floor to speak over us about our own experiences, or give them all our resources. Even before we get to the fact that women need some women only spaces for privacy, dignity and safety.

@MbatataOwl
"Can a transwoman be a woman if there is no one around to perceive them as being a woman?"

Its about what they feel they are, regardless of who is around to witness it. That's from what I gather :)

If a man falls over in woods and nobody is there to see, does he fall over in the woods?