Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

What I've had to do is actually turn trans women away knowing that they will be more at risk due to sleeping rough because there is no safe alternative for them.

Other male people would be too. What about them? Male people still don't belong in spaces where women are vulnerable.

This is absolute word salad.

Feminists have been fighting against these stereotypes for decades and this gender identity shite will set feminism back by about 30 years.

transwomen would be able to also learn more about the female experience of cis women and what our needs are and support those.

This has been niggling at me.

Do you honestly believe that females should be 'educating' males who are identifying as women what women need?

Don't they know already supposedly? After all, there are transitioned males already in 'Women's officer roles' influencing policy making about female's needs.

And I do hope that you are not talking about female service users having anything to do with that education either.

Word salad is uncalled for. You can fight against gender stereotypes as much as you like (and I do!) but it’s ridiculous to pretend that you don’t see it.

We give a wide range of options and let people choose how they wish to be referred to and then we respect that. But I do appreciate those of you who corrected me as I said I appreciate it.

For me living as a woman is where you either identify or were born as a woman and are impacted by that either through societal perceptions of you, the existence of a pro-patriarchal society and its impact on you and all the vulnerabilities, challenges and exclusions that go along with that.

Exactly, so what IS gender? We know precisely what biological sex is. It's really quite easy to accurately describe a biological reality. It's the 'gender identify' stuff that someone has yet to explain to me in a manner that isn't just gender stereotypes. What EXACTLY does identify as/live as the female gender mean?

Is it....wear dresses? Nope, women can wear trousers, men can wear dresses, wear whatever you please.
Is it....wear your hair long? Nope, many women have short hair/many men have long hair.
Is it....'be soft and 'girly' and 'feminine''? WTF is that if not a sexist gender stereotype.
Is is....call yourself a 'girl's' name? Come off it. By all means call yourself whatever you want.

So please, genuinely interested to know what it means to you, seeing as you believe in it and I don't.

@Cw122

I found your point about people who menstruate really interesting because personally it doesn't overly bother me

So your stance is that if something doesn't overly bother you, it's not something anyone should be bothered about?

You know it bothers a lot of women.

It feels like the stance of TRAs is basically that hurt feelings, sense of self identity and a desire to be validated are all fundamental human rights unless a female bodied person wants them.

Look, if you're not going to answer, people are going to assume it's because you dont have an answer. Which kind of undermines everything you've said.

But of course it’s all those things - flowers are feminine. Pink is feminine. Women wear trousers - they’re still buying them from either the women’s section OR the men’s section. Long hair is feminine if you’re also wearing a floral, pink pair of trousers.

So you can say you have no gender identity but that’s very difficult in reality when you have binary choices: wear makeup? Feminine! Wear a balaclava? Masculine!

Do you live in the 50s?! What about those transwomen that present completely as men..beard, no makeup, is fond of their penis (or telling women to choke on one)?
Is a transwoman as transwoman if they're not feminine in appearance?

Calling someone cis is defining them within the framework of a belief system most of us just don't share.

Exactly. If "cis" simply meant "non trans", a "trans woman" would therefore be a biologically female person who identifies as a man. But because it doesn't simply mean "non trans" it in fact means the exact opposite. It means I have to signal that I think males can be women.

As I do not think this, and moreover am strongly opposed to this belief system and think it's very harmful, I find "cis" an offensive term.

But I don't accept the legitimacy of it, and nor should anyone who calls themselves a feminist. That's why I think believing that trans women are women, or believing in any aspect of gender ideology at all, is incompatible with feminism, because it is giving a legitimacy to something which is essentially the opposite of feminism.

Like it or not, if you allow the "gender identity" definition of "woman" to stand, you are forcing women to be defined by reference to those stereotypes whether they consent or not.

Lia Thomas wants to compete with the women because of Lia's gender identity. But if Lia were to compete according to gender identity, Lia would be competing in a category of one. This whole thing depends on the pretence that women share a gender identity with trans women, that we agree to be defined as people who wear dresses and makeup, and that's what's so offensive about the whole thing.

I’d say no, but the vast majority of trans women are not doing that. And I don’t live in the 50s, I live in 2022 where the social construct of gender exists. Where do you live that it doesn’t?

That's an utter cop out. Time and time again GC women have patiently asked those who believe in gender identity and that TWAW to explain what gender identity means. It should be easy surely to explain what it means to you if it's something you actually believe in. I don't believe it because I don't know what it is other than sexist stereotypes. Go on, enlighten me, rather than hiding behind 'oh you're too far gone it's not worth it'. How can you hope to persuade anyone to your way of thinking if you won't explain what you think and why?

I've genuinely yet to see someone explain anywhere what it means. All the #nodebate because there's no actual argument.

For me living as a woman is where you either identify or were born as a woman and are impacted by that either through societal perceptions of you, the existence of a pro-patriarchal society and its impact on you and all the vulnerabilities, challenges and exclusions that go along with that.

Trans women are impacted through societal perceptions of trans women and the impact of those perceptions of trans women and all the vulnerabilities, challenges and exclusions that go along with being a trans woman.

Not being a woman.

Trying to hijack the experience of being a woman by attempting to opt in to the painful realities that often includes, is completely inappropriate and undermines the unique experience of being a woman. Aka someone with a female body who has been treated in a way specific to that sex during childhood, adolescence and adulthood.

Go on then, try us. I dare you....

I don’t accept the legitimacy of it either. I’m saying it exists, because it does. So saying you can’t understand what ‘live like a woman’ means is ridiculous.

@Pumperthepumper

But of course it’s all those things - flowers are feminine. Pink is feminine. Women wear trousers - they’re still buying them from either the women’s section OR the men’s section. Long hair is feminine if you’re also wearing a floral, pink pair of trousers.

I think the point is that while if someone believes in gender identity, they would say a trans woman's gender identity is 'woman'.

But that doesn't mean their sex is woman.

So the difference is wanting to adopt the stereotypical characteristics of 'women'.

Which is their prerogative. But means they are driven by a desire to be something rather than innately 'being' a woman.

That’s what it means in relation to trans women. It’s not what it means in relation to being a biological woman.

Yes, that's because it's a list of stereotypes that appeal to some male people who feel uncomfortable with either their male body or the stereotypes of their own sex. Not anything to do with actually being female. So nothing to do with being a woman in fact. Because woman is simply the name for an adult human female person. Nothing else.

Apologies I think I cross posted. I can seenyou have tried to answer. Your definition does not cohere tw and women does it? I'm looking for a commonality . Being and identifying as a woman do not lead to the same perceptions of you . You've just lumped two separate categories together. Everyones affected by a pro patriarchal society. Women and TW are impacted in quite different ways though. TW are not excluded like women. There is a different basis to their exclusion Can you try again?

Re cis. If you do not ask 'are you cis' you don't know that people are.

I think it's about recognising the differences and nuances in the lived experiences of each. Just as a white woman I need to listen and learn from the women of colour who have spoken about their needs because I recognise that they are different to mine. It's my responsibility to go away and educate myself at the end of the day so of course I'm not saying it's anyone's obligation to educate anyone but themselves. But equally we all have variances in our lived experiences whether due to a transition, orientation, religion, culture or ethnic background. So to me, if we want to have a feminist agenda that is pushing for an equitable, fair and inclusive society then we need to be listening to each other on all sides to help create that as a shared goal. I feel like when there's too much infighting among feminists it takes away from what to me would be a much stronger joined up approach and make it easier for us to mobilise to effect action and change.

I’d say no, but the vast majority of trans women are not doing that.

You've done a survey, have you?

So if a woman who menstruates, gives birth and breastfeeds never wears dresses or makeup, is she living as a woman or not?

Does living as a woman mean living in a female body that does female things?

Or does it mean wearing dresses and makeup?

And if it could mean either of those things, where is the coherence?

A male person living in a male body who wears dresses and makeup is not living in the same way as a female person living in a female body who doesn't wear dresses and makeup. They are the literal opposite of each other. To say they are both living as a woman leads to the inevitable conclusion that living as a woman doesn't actually mean anything.

What is ridiculous is your arrogant assumption that people just know what it means and a refusal to just define it.

You won’t get an explanation from @NalaNana because s/he/they have left the thread.

They (old ‘they’, meaning a group of people) always, always do when faced with the exact question you have posed, @Lemonyfuckit - what is gender identity?

It is a set of regressive stereotypes, so it’s too embarrassing for them to have to explain or define it to people. Which means, on threads like this, they simply have to disappear into the ether when probed.