Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

but we can still provide service and support for transwomen that runs parallel to that without denying them completely

TW can of course campaign for their own third spaces and use stonewall's significant resources to do so. I'm not sure who you mean by 'we' in your post

I absolutely agree men need to be challenged more of course but I also think it's unrealistic to expect someone who identifies as female to feel comfortable in male spaces just as its unrealistic to expect someone who identifies as male to feel comfortable in female only spaces.

Men need to be challenged first.

It is unrealistic to expect females to feel comfortable in single sex spaces if male bodied people are present.

So why is their discomfort less important than that of trans women?

“Few things with this that I'm thinking about is, if you are seeing transwomen as 'men' are you also seeing transmen as 'women'? And are you therefore prepared for transmales to be included in your stream of feminist thinking?”

Yes. Trans men are included in my feminism because like it or not, despite what they are called and identified as, they are biological women. I’d be more than happy to share a single sex space with a trans man.

I'm meaning we as in community provision that's been traditionally female only such as domestic violence charities, homeless shelters etc. As a community worker that's the filter I'm thinking about this through.

I'd actually like some more information on the sex crimes statistics you gave because I haven't heard that before and I'd be interested to know is it broken down by nature of the sex crime eg is sex work included in that or what is that actually made up of?

No.
"Sex crimes" means rape, sexual assault, indecent exposure and so on.

It does not mean "sex work".

What are your top 5 feminist priorities that don't involve advocating for male transitioners?

I'm meaning we as in community provision that's been traditionally female only such as domestic violence charities, homeless shelters etc. As a community worker that's the filter I'm thinking about this through.

They can campaign for what provision they need as a third space.

@Cw122

I'm meaning we as in community provision that's been traditionally female only such as domestic violence charities, homeless shelters etc.

Female bodied people in those places are even more vulnerable than women in public toilets for example.

That is why single sex (not single gender identity) provisions exist for female bodied people and male bodied people.

So why should female bodied be made less safe in order to not hurt the feelings of male bodied people?

And if your argument is that it's not about feelings, it's about the physical safety of trans women (male bodied people) then that reinforces the necessity of single sex spaces for female bodied people.

Women had to fight for female only single sex spaces, despite coming up against patriarchal resistance. They had to fight long and hard to secure female only single spaces.

Why do TRAs not think they should fight long and hard for spaces that are safe for them? Why do they believe women should make space in their single sex spaces to the detriment of their safety and comfort, instead of asking men to make space in theirs and treat trans women with respect?

The answer i suspect is in truth because TRAs see changing male behaviour as more difficult and challenging than changing female behaviour.

But that's why they should campaign for third spaces or safe spaces in male single sex spaces.

It wasn't easy for women either. It wasn't quick. It wasn't widely accepted by society to start with.

And that's not me making it a race to the bottom. It's making it fair and not allowing male bodied people to benefit from the tough, decades long, ongoing work women do to make themselves physically safer through single sex spaces which were specifically fought for in order to remove the presence of male bodied people from said spaces.

Oh and I have never, ever, ever seen any attempts by TRAs, online or in real life, to engage specifically with men in order to insist they make their spaces safer for trans women. Or be respectful of trans women.

Why have no TRAs started campaigns specifically targeting men just like they have campaigns specifically targeting female single sex spaces at the cost of women's safety and dignity?

Genuine question.

And why do you support them not doing that?

And why do you support them not campaigning for third spaces for trans women?

I'm mulling your question over about my top 5. The reason why I'm asking about the makeup of that statistic is because prostitution is still listed under sex crimes with the CPS in the UK so that's why I wanted to read more into it because I personally would hate to think that's included in that statistic and being used against tw as a result when other forms of employment can be difficult.

A PP said That absolutely includes trans women and for those asking about what happens when there's a conflict- really there's not that much conflict that occurs in reality that can't be resolved with open discourse and genuine attempt at understanding

You say “genuine attempt at understanding”

I say “capitulation to male demands”

Potayto /Potahto

it's unrealistic to expect someone who identifies as female to feel comfortable in male spaces just as its unrealistic to expect someone who identifies as male to feel comfortable in female only spaces.

Why is it unrealistic? You expect women to be comfortable with maless so why can't trans women be comfortable with other males?

So, are we being told that trans people deny their sex?

When we are assured constantly that no trans person denies their sex.

But there are way more services and more support for trans women - specifically for trans people - than there are for natal women.

Because for me by my own personal definition trans women are women and we can agree to disagree on that but that's where I personally stand.

But also I think arguing about transactivism between ourselves is kind of irrelevant- that's a discourse that needs to happen between feminists and transpeople in a sensitive and respectful way on both sides. I think the challenge is who mediates that because both sides feel so strongly on the topic.

In answer to your question I suspect its due to transmen feeling they wouldn't be safe in male only spaces because of the risks there they avoid them. And for transwomen its having to deny their own identity in order to engage with male spaces. Again they're not going to do that because it would be harmful to them. So they're turning to us to find belonging and support. And because of that I feel that is a feminist issue because its directly impacting on women as a result of male avoidance and unwillingness to change. So I feel its something we need to engage with.

For that reason I actually think it should probably be charities or community/statutory provision that engages with transpeople to identify needs and find the balance in meeting those needs accessibly. For example where the issue is communal bathrooms, have neutral bathrooms that are individual rooms rather than just cubicles etc. Or have a transwomens support worker attached to dv charities. Or protected safe houses in the community for tw experiencing dv. None of that encroaches on protected spaces and they'd stay the same but it widens provision to make it accessible.

Here you go @Cw122 re the figure's accuracy.

And prostitution conviction is not a sex offence by uk law, so the figures below not include prostitution. They are specifically about sex offences so rape, sexual assault etc.

"There were between 142 and 145 transwomen in the male prison estate. (This is 146 minus a number between one and four). And 87 of those prisoners had at least one conviction for a sexual offence.
This means that the proportion of male-born transwomen in the prison system who are sex offenders is between 60 per cent and 61.3 per cent. That is significantly higher than the roughly 18 per cent of the general population of the male estate who are jailed forr_ sexual offences. It is also a lot higher than the 41 per cent estimate that Fair Play for Women made in 2018, to some controversy."

Yes, why is it out of the question for trans women to have to share space with natal males - people of their own sex - but women must be forced to share space with natal males?

How does that work, exactly? Where is the logic?

In my own experience working with homelessness and dv I haven't found that to be the case. I've found that tw are more likely to stay in abusive relationships because they can't access hostel accommodation and been suicidal as a result or slept rough because there was just nowhere for them to go. And I was the one doing the ringing round trying to find somewhere. There's also the stigma attached to being trans that can cause huge barriers to employment/education/access to justice and we don't even have accurate statistics to reflect on that in context because its not recorded all I can tell you is what I see on the ground. Even within lgbtqa+ groups transpeople can experience stigmas and exclusion so I'm not convinced on this argument.

Because for me by my own personal definition trans women are women and we can agree to disagree on that but that's where I personally stand.

@Cw122 What do you actually believe a woman is?

Yup , this

And for transwomen its having to deny their own identity in order to engage with male spaces. Again they're not going to do that because it would be harmful to them. So they're turning to us to find belonging and support.

So again, you're prioritising the affirmation of trans women (male bodied people) over the safety and dignity of female bodied people.

You're saying it's more harmful for a male bodied person to feel their self identity as a woman is not recognised than it is for a female bodied person to feel they are unsafe, uncomfortable and as a result unable to use female only single sex spaces. Why is that?

See as a feminist, I see that as someone prioritising the feelings of male bodied people over the feelings of female bodied people.

Why is it cruel and transphobic to expect male bodied people to campaign for a third space or use single sex men only spaces but not cruel and female phobic to expect female bodied people to accept male bodied people into single sex women only spaces to the detriment of their feelings, safety and dignity?

@Cw122 Because for me by my own personal definition trans women are women and we can agree to disagree on that but that's where I personally stand.

What does that mean though? It’s hard for me to understand what someone means by the word “woman” if a male person can be included in it. It seems inevitably to lead to a circular (and therefore meaningless) definition.

It’s also strange how just this one physical fact about someone can be changed by fiat, but that no others can. Why sex, but not height, weight, albedo, nationality, where you were born etc?

Even within lgbtqa+ groups transpeople can experience stigmas and exclusion so I'm not convinced on this argument.

And just as when it comes to misogyny and VAWG, it is women who are expected to mobilise and fight specifically for men to change their attitude towards women (as they are overwhelmingly the problem when it comes to misogyny), so too should it surely be on trans people and TRAs to be the ones to to mobilise and fight specifically for LGBTQA+ people to change their attitude towards trans people?

And for transwomen its having to deny their own identity in order to engage with male spaces. Again they're not going to do that because it would be harmful to them. So they're turning to us to find belonging and support.

Genuine question: why do we need to care about their identity? It doesn't actually have anything to do with other people.

What if my identity is "adult human of the female biological sex" and it is denying my identity to have to share single sex spaces with adult humans of the male biological sex?

Why am I supposed to care about their identity when they don't care about mine? Why am I supposed to care about using male spaces being "harmful" to them when they don't care about their presence in female spaces being harmful to women?

Where is the give and take here?

Males turning to females to find belonging and support 🙄

what a load of bollocks men are used to deciding where they belong and expect our(females) unquestionable support

It’s male entitlement as clear as it can be

Intersectionality is important but doesn't work if you impose incongruent intersections.
Feminism is concerned with the equality and rights of females, sex is the axis of oppression. This can intersect with race, disability, age....and also with being transgender but that intersection is transmen not transwomen.

Maybe try talking to males about intersectionality in relation to the problems faced by transwomen.

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Love this 👏