Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

Well I am certainly sick of hearing about their feelings when no one appears to care about women's.

@electricdreaming

You might not come back to this thread, electric. I thought you seemed like a very nice person.

But you have taken a wrong turn on DSDs. Every doctor would agree that Mboma is biologically male - if she had been born in the U.K., she would have been given a chromosome test at birth that would have 100% correctly sexed her. She is not female. Internally, she is a man, with ambiguous genitalia. Caster semenya is similar (and reportedly has fathered children - looking at photos of her childhood it is absolutely clear that she was raised as a boy and claimed to be a woman for athletics purposes once she was scouted and started winning) - no here wants to deny her the chance to compete against women because she is black. It just isn't fair for her to run against females.

@Cw122

You also seem a nice person. But you seem to be arguing at cross purposes - no one here would deny a TW sympathy or a third space for safety. But the absence of spaces for TW in shelters means that the campaign should be for spaces for them specifically - all of us would support that - it doesn't logically follow that because someone is oppressed they belong with females.

maybe instead of mens/womens sports are mixed or based on height/weight etc depending on what the sport requires.

This has been floated now for at least a couple of years.

Please tell us which model you have seen that is convincing that allows females who are not doping on testosterone to have fair competition.

Because, it seems to me that people who simply repeat this as a solution, have not actually read the science behind the decisions that are being made. They are purely reacting to the activists who are simply repeating this as a solution while making absolutely no move to develop a way for it to happen.

To clarify, have you ever seen a model presented that is safe for female participation against males that is also fair for females? Any model at all? Let's start with one.

No? Any idea why that has not happened?

The current solution that is being proposed is a male category, a female category and an open category. Will this work? Well only if those females who participate in that sport actually don't care a jot for winning. Let's see.

Sure. It requires men step up to the mark and 'broaden the bandwidth' of being a male. It requires men to stop being transphobic and homophobic. It requires men to work out how to be inclusive of transwomen in sports etc.

It's not the job of feminism. Women have enough issues of our own to deal with.

we all need protection it doesn't have to be an "us and them"

Lions and antelopes both deserve protection. But nobody would make the antelopes share facilities with the protected lions.

"Honestly, all the lions here are vegans so you bloody herbivores can just shut the fuck up".

So your feminism is all about women stepping aside for and supporting men. 🙄

I am a feminist and it means I view women as equal to men and think they deserve equal rights and treatment.

So maybe instead of mens/womens sports are mixed or based on height/weight etc depending on what the sport requires

Can you please tell us what other categorisation you think this rework can be done for?

Age? Do you think that age categories can be eliminated and that competition still remains fair and safe? Is it ok for a 25 year old to compete in an event that has been designation for the under 10s? No? Why?

Ability? Do you think that the classifications to allow athletes with disabilities should be opened up to all athletes? That fairness should be ignored and inclusion of able bodied athletes who might wish to compete in that event be allowed? Because that able bodied athlete wishes it?

Professional vs amateur? should a professional ever be allowed to compete in an amateur category?

Why is it that the female category that has been declared as not fit for purpose because some males wish to compete in it?

Do you honestly believe that solutions that work for both females and transitioned males have not been suggested and rejected by transitioned males or, maybe more accurately, the lobby groups that represent their interests?

Do you really believe that?

So maybe instead of mens/womens sports are mixed or based on height/weight etc depending on what the sport requires

Aside from all the excellent points raised to counter this, just why would you?

Sex segregation of sports has worked really well for decades. It has given women opportunities they would never have otherwise.

Why on earth would you throw that model out, for your suggestion which has no track record in any sport, to support an illusory belief that people can change sex.

How on earth do you justify that?

Why is it the job of women or ‘mn feminists’ as you like to segregate them, to build that for men though? They can sort their own safety out. Not compromise ours.

The current solution that is being proposed is a male category, a female category and an open category. Will this work? Well only if those females who participate in that sport actually don't care a jot for winning. Let's see.

Ooops. Should be

The current solution that is being proposed is a male category, a female category and an open category. Will this work? Well only if those females who participate in that sport actually don't care a jot for winning and join in the open category. Let's see.

Let's see if those female athletes put their passionate convictions to the test in reality.

Wasn't it the UN who declared that feminists were the mothers of the world?

There is certainly a stream of feminism that has decided that they should dedicate themselves to fighting to find solutions for every minority group. They tend to also ignore the systemic oppression that is still happening to females in society. They try to give that oppression cool names and call it empowerment.

It really is fascinating the posturing over the various accommodations that have to be made...by females...for males.

Every time. Who wins here? Not females.

Few things with this that I'm thinking about is, if you are seeing transwomen as 'men' are you also seeing transmen as 'women'? And are you therefore prepared for transmales to be included in your stream of feminist thinking?

The reason why I'm asking that is I genuinely feel there would be more issue with transmales in female only spaces than there would be with transwomen in female only spaces. And while we're talking about leaving the responsibility to men to broaden their view of manhood and provide care for transwomen, the opposite to that is expecting women to broaden their view of what it is to be can female and provide care for transmales. As a community worker who's supported trans people in the past I don't see how you could ever provide a service to someone while at the same time denying their identity that would be the beginnings of institutionally abusive behaviour and really harmful.

I think the bit where I get really stuck is that not that long ago white women were exploiting and excluding women of colour and acting as 'gatekeepers of feminism' which as we can now recognise was wrong and so incredibly harmful. The logic and reasoning used there was that those women were seen as different and 'less than'. And I can't shake the feeling that there's overlap with how feminists now are talking about and excluding transwomen. I think that when we are trying to further the cause of women and create a better society for women to be in it shouldn't be done at the expense of other minority groups, otherwise how are we better than that and how have we moved forward?

I really believe that if we included transwomen in feminism and focused on finding positive solution focused dialogue and learning we'd be able to find a way to do the work we need to do as feminists while also keeping services etc accessible for other vulnerable people and transwomen would be able to also learn more about the female experience of cis women and what our needs are and support those.

I've included the wrong quote there!

I really believe that if we included transwomen in feminism and focused on finding positive solution focused dialogue and learning we'd be able to find a way to do the work we need to do as feminists

Why would feminists do that when the loudest voices in TRA are clear they aren't interested in solutions beyond being accepted fully as women?

If TW want positive, solution focused dialogue, they can lead those overtures. I've seen nothing to suggest they are interested and it sure isn't woman's job to chase them.

I really believe that if we included transwomen in feminism and focused on finding positive solution focused dialogue and learning we'd be able to find a way to do the work we need to do as feminists while also keeping services etc accessible for other vulnerable people and transwomen would be able to also learn more about the female experience of cis women and what our needs are and support those.

Can you pop along to a trans forum and tell them that's your plan and let us know how that goes for you?

Males who identify as women that are in prison, 60% of them are there for sexual crimes, compared to males who do not identify as women. That figure is 20%. So with the three times the chances that a transwoman will commit a sex based crime and you want to ignore this actual evidence and plough on including males and therefore exclude more females?

Who is going to find this positive focused solution when all that happens is women get shoved out? Groups get taken over. Women and girls get kicked out of their own spaces because a man wants it.

Honestly what fucking planet are you on?

@Cw122

When it comes to safety, trans men need the same protections and considerations as other natal women.

They are vulnerable in the same ways that are specific to the female body.

To deny their right to services that protect their sex specific physical characteristics as natal women would be to let them down.

They are free to opt out of those services but they should be there if needed, to protect their safety in situations where it's necessary.

CW122
I want you to name your five top priorities for feminism that don't have something to do with someone's gender identity.

@Cw122

The reason why I'm asking that is I genuinely feel there would be more issue with transmales in female only spaces than there would be with transwomen in female only spaces.

But there is currently far more of an issue with trans women in male spaces, according to TRAs who use this as a reason to insist trans women should be welcomed into female spaces for their safety.

That is due to men's behaviour, not women's. So it is therefore more pressing that men's behaviour is challenged than women's.

Yet all TRA discussions are centred on women making space for trans women in currently single sex spaces, rather than fighting for men to consider the feelings of trans women and accommodate them with respect and kindness.

Why is it that women are expected to offer kindness even if they are uncomfortable and feel unsafe, while men aren't held to the same standard?

It's a genuine question that nobody asking women to accept trans women in currently single sex spaces seems to be able to answer.

I think I actually agree with you on this aspect and I think most of that is down to societal expectation of men not being able to know better or do better and for me that's not good enough. This is one of the issues I think needs to be addressed through positive dialogue but my point is that it's really difficult to create that dialogue when you're denying someone's identity right from the get go, it makes it really hard to start from a place of respect to build mutual understanding. I absolutely agree men need to be challenged more of course but I also think it's unrealistic to expect someone who identifies as female to feel comfortable in male spaces just as its unrealistic to expect someone who identifies as male to feel comfortable in female only spaces.

I've already said a few times that there of course will need to be some protected spaces for women but I see no reason why there can't be a transwomen accessible version that is also offered so both needs are met then people are able to choose to engage with what they as an individual feel most comfortable with that meets their needs.

You both would suffer with sexist recruitment/salaries,

Utter bollocks @NalaNana middle aged white men (who are the largest demographic of TW in the UK) DO NOT see their salary reduced to the level a comparable woman receives when they choose to transition.

You have no need to be rude, naturally it's an emotive topic for everyone but let's not attack each other when we're disagreeing. I'd actually like some more information on the sex crimes statistics you gave because I haven't heard that before and I'd be interested to know is it broken down by nature of the sex crime eg is sex work included in that or what is that actually made up of?

And as I said earlier I get the need for protected spaces but we can still provide service and support for transwomen that runs parallel to that without denying them completely.

I've already said a few times that there of course will need to be some protected spaces for women but I see no reason why there can't be a transwomen accessible version that is also offered so both needs are met

Because TW don't want that, they want the female only space to use as validation, consideration for females who can't then use the space or service designed for them is meaningless to them - exclusion of some females so they can be included is absolutely fine by them.

It's all about them and their selfish wants.