Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

I'm not saying that we can't have protected spaces I just feel that it's important that we don't do it at the complete exclusion of transwomen.

Single sex spaces by definition exclude trans women, and I’m ok with that. I agree services need to recognise and provide for the trans community but not at the expense of single sex spaces for women.

Well TW don't have vulvas - just a superficial mock up - so I don't think that poster was referring to TW

they “present” - I know people don’t like this, but if they have a vulva

So you are implying you don't consider anyone with a penis a woman? That sounds reasonable.

Christ the night. Did you read those stats? They're flipping horrific. And let's not forget that feminism historically has been built from straight white women climbing on the backs of other women at their direct expense because they were seen as different to them and we need to be better than that. My point is that intersectionality is flipping important, I've no interest in furthering myself if it involves shitting on another person to get there, I will always try to find a way around that, but that's just me, you do you.

Most feminists are concerned with Transgender people who don't have any DSD

Although recent events have I think made people less tolerant of male people with female appearances caused by DSD being considered female in all cases

When you force people to examine the facts they may not come to the sane conclusion you do

No I haven't seen any stats

Have you actually posted any reliable stats ?

I went back and looked at the report you mentioned and again it seemed to be specific to domestic violence perpetrated from male to female victims who were at some point in a relationship.

Yes, which is why I specifically said the statistic was about male partners (current or former) killing female partners. That's quite literally what I said.

So my point was just that if you're going to put out a statistic around femicide it needs to be in context.

Why does the statistic "two women are murdered every week by a male current or former partner" need qualification? It's a very clear statistic that gives a numerical value and explicitly states the sex of the victim and perpetrator within that statistic.

If we say, for example 'one in four women have been raped' do we now have to add 'and men are also raped'? The latter is horrific, of course. It doesn't, however, provide additional context to the one in four women stat, and doesn't make that stat any less factual.

If we share a stat about disabled people being likely to be sexually assaulted (there are some horrific stats about this) do we now have to mention that able bodied people get sexually assaulted too? It wouldn't make sense to.

Depends what you mean by trans woman. If you mean born male but diagnosed with severe gender dysphoria and undergoing/gone medical treatment to transition to female then yes they’re women (but with some differences to natal women) and I include them in my feminism.

Some people do have to transition, just as many people have to undergo medical treatment to get well for all sorts of reasons.

Not necessarily - but that’s a whole other debate lol. The point here was just saying “males” banned from competing in sports based on high testosterone levels or having gone through male puberty through no choice and their natural biology shouldn’t be discriminated against or classed as men. If they’ve got a vulva, for me they’re a woman. If they haven’t but identify as a woman, that’s a whole other debate.

I went back and looked at the report you mentioned and again it seemed to be specific to domestic violence perpetrated from male to female victims who were at some point in a relationship. So my point was just that if you're going to put out a statistic around femicide it needs to be in context.

She did, you jumped in and misunderstood it and what it was being used to say. No MTF trans people have been killed in the U.K. in the last 3 and a half years, for any reason or by any type of perpetrator so anything else relating to DV is irrelevant. Hope that's clear.

If they’ve got a vulva, for me they’re a woman.

Interesting you say this as it means you believe a trans man is a woman even if they identify as a man.

Which means, again, you would be called a transphobe by the TRAs who call us t*rfs...

My point is that intersectionality is flipping important

Yes, being born female is a significant axis of oppression, and if gender identity adherents cared about intersectionality they would acknowledge that, instead of trying to pretend sex doesn't matter.

They’re two separate debates for me - if they’ve got a vulva and call themselves a woman, they’re a woman with no question. If they’ve got a vulva and call themselves a man, that’s up to them and I personally would call them a man, whether or not they should be included in feminism would be an interesting debate though because I suppose for as long as they are a biological woman, they suffer the same discrimination. But as far as biology goes with the debate, if they’ve got the matching genitals to their identity, there should be no debate about it. Vulva + calling yourself a woman = woman.

Also I know this is probably a very stupid question, but what does TRA mean lol? Is it trans rights activist?

Yes.

I don't think you understand what discrimination means. Not allowing someone if they're not part of the category of people the group is for is not discrimination. Males don't have vulval and surgery can't give them one.

Yes dreaming

Absolutely that no one should be shitting on anyone! And there are women saying “wait a minute TW, whilst you’re trying to inject yourself into my rights, you’re shitting on me slightly, can’t you fight for your own?”. And instead of being listened to, they’re told to be nice (at best, sent death threats at worst).

This wasn’t about trans men this was about sportswomen born “women” but who had naturally high levels of testosterone. They naturally have vulvas.

Feminism is about centring women, eg always looking at the effect any policy or action will have on women, to ensure it doesn’t harm us or undermine our rights. Any politics that revolves around males, eg the gender identity movement, is by definition not feminist.

Ok. So you have your own definition that you are working to that is not that of medical clinicians or relevant scientists.

It is important to acknowledge this. So thank you for the clarification .

This thread is going to be read by thousands of people and it is actually really important that where you are presenting misinformation or ambiguous information, it is acknowledged.

So, for clarity, it also seems that you also cannot evidence ‘females who have been banned from sport’ either. This is actually where definition is very important. There is a huge amount of misinformation being spread that females with high testosterone are banned from sport and this is very harmful for females. Those humans who have bodies formed around the production of large gametes, whether those gametes are ever produced, or ever have.

See, you define female based on external body parts, but that doesn’t follow medical guidelines. It is to do with the body formed around ovaries, whether working or not, and not external body parts, or any person who has tested in any form, no matter how much you wish it to be otherwise.

So your discussion of ‘high testosterone’ similarly lacks credibility if you cannot even define the range you are talking about. It is again important to not continue to post clearly unevidenced misinformation.

Thanks for the clarification.

That’s fine, no worries. You and scientists apparently define females around ovaries, I’m more so focused on genitalia. Pretty sure when you have an ultrasound and there’s a vulva on the screen they say it’s a girl/female, same when the babies born. Don’t remember anyone ever testing to see if I have ovaries before calling me a woman, but who knows, maybe they have!

Oh FFS!

They are not being told they are ‘men’. They are being excluded from participating in some female sports categories, and most likely from all female sports categories.

It doesn’t matter if they have a vulva! It matters if they have testes producing hormones that their bodies use!

You’ve literally said earlier in this thread that they are male/men.

I don’t have to rely on a man
If I need someone to do do something I can’t do, I pay someone. I don’t really care about whether the someone I am paying was born male or female, I’m more interested in their standard of work
I am not allowed to vacuum, as every time I touch it it breaks, so I pay a cleaner, no idea of it’s gender, never met it. I pay it, it doesn’t complain
Next week I am having a structural wall removed, I’ve not discussed with my builder, structural engineer or building inspector who I have all met, what they identify as other than people competent enough to stop my house from falling down
So I guess I am some kind of ist
bring it on