Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

Aw thank you 🥺

I know don’t get me started on how long it took me to find the actual source, hence why I can’t find it now lol. But I am pretty sure it’s the Flores one

Thanks, that's helpful.

That’s your feminism. Not someone else’s gender identity.

Yes. Those views really don’t stand up to reality and analysis, do they?

Nice in principle, but doesn’t withstand rigorous scrutiny.

They don’t have to accept it’s true - if you don’t want to read it then don’t, don’t believe me. I don’t have those works in front of me and I’m not going to read 40+ page works to find a specific example - I have a life. I know that the work shows examples because I directly quoted it in my dissertation with a statement. I provided a statement, a source with the evidence and that wasn’t sufficient. That’s fine, don’t believe me, but I can’t be bothered to find a specific example to prove it. If anyone is genuinely interested and wants to read up on it, the sources are there. If you think I’m making it up, that’s okay! I really don’t mind if you can’t be arsed to read it because I can’t either.

There we go, a tantrum when asked to provide evidence. It's utterly bizarre.

So many dismissive and pass agg comments in one post... can't be arsed / have a life / can't be bothered etc.

You made a claim and are unwilling to share the evidence that backs it up in a way that is reasonable, sensible and fair on a discussion forum.

Well done 👍🏻

I’m not a sociologist, I have a degree from a top U.K. university and I’m not really arsed if you don’t rate me. FWIW a lot of the work I’ve quoted was written by black women highlighting the link between racism and sexism and how they are discriminated against. You don’t have to agree with me, it’s okay. Some people class women with high testosterone levels as women, I am one of those people. You obviously don’t, completely fine. Let’s agree to disagree now.

I have worked in rape crisis centers so I understand why some women may feel uncomfortable with a transwoman providing their care and support. My point is that the issue there is how would they know that the person providing their care and support was born male or intersex? Again I feel this comes down to issue of appearance and how able someone is to 'pass' as male or female. I'm not saying that we can't have protected spaces I just feel that it's important that we don't do it at the complete exclusion of transwomen. There is difficulty for transwomen to access services such as rape crisis Centres and dv shelters and homeless accommodation because we aren't offering an alternative option and that is harmful. It's not selfish to recognise that, it just means we need to be giving wider, better provision that meets all needs in different ways - equity over equality like I said earlier.

On your other point i think that it's naieve to think that transwomen don't experience similar pressures from society and stereotypes as cis gendered women. There are differences and nuances sure, but there are also overlaps. Why wouldn't a baby born intersex and raised as female their entire life not be seen as anything other than female because biologically you've decided they just don't fit anywhere?

Not tantrumming, not passive aggressive. I genuinely cannot be bothered to trawl back through it - I’ve done it once. You don’t have to believe me, but if you do want the source, it’s there. If you choose not to believe it or also can’t be bothered to read it, completely fine. I’ve provided evidence in the form of sources, but no I’ve admitted defeat in that I can’t produce a “proper” example.

Also I can't imagine how triggering it must be to be a transwoman and read about people denying your existence and identity. This is why suicide rates among trans women are so high, much more so than among other women. What's the point of saying its safer to be a transwoman in the UK if you're more likely to die by suicide. We need to be looking at the wider picture there.

Male suicide rates are higher than women's.

Oh can you point to evidence rather than assertion on suicide facts?

Ideally uk specific and not suffering from confounding factors like autism

Or sex as pp observes !

A source for what ?

point is that the issue there is how would they know that the person providing their care and support was born male

Because 99% of the time it's blindingly obvious.

Passing trans women, if they exist, which I expect they do but are rare, would have a small subset of the same issues as women.

Most of the time sex it is obvious, the effects of testosterone are profound.

Being trans and looking trans comes with its own set of problems.

Being male and conforming more closely to female gender stereotypes comes with its own set of problems.

All of these problems are because of the concept of gender.

A significant proportion of trans women socially transition late after being very male gender conforming.

I could list 20 with ease.
Many openly admit to autogynephilia.

Open your eyes.

@Cw122

Why wouldn't a baby born intersex and raised as female their entire life not be seen as anything other than female because biologically you've decided they just don't fit anywhere?

Someone born intersex (DSD) and raised female would have experienced childhood and adolescence as a female. Their experiences would have been entirely informed by quite literally having always lived as a female. They would have suffered sex based discrimination and oppression specific to girls and women if they had always been considered and looked like a girl and woman from birth onwards.

How is that comparable someone who was born male, experienced childhood as a male, experienced adolescence as a male and had the sex based privileges of being male throughout all of that time, then self identified as a woman in adulthood?

Again, using intersex people as a gotcha is something they've repeatedly asked trans activists not to do as it's an entirely different scenario.

Hopefully you can see from this post that you really got the wrong end of the stick on this one @Cw122?

Not very peaceful calling people pigs.

So when does someone have to transition to count as female in your opinion? This is important especially since a lot of trans young people especially where I live are refused gender treatment despite feeling overwhelmingly that they need it.

As for those who asked about the suicide stats you can look at the Stonewall Report which found that 84% of trans young people reported self harm, 92% had experienced suicidal ideation and 45% had actively attempted to end their lives. This was significantly higher than non trans peers from the same age bracket. It's pretty grim and I think it shows that we should be trying to be more open in our approach and making services for transwomen more accessible eg having a specific worker or accommodation available so it's not affecting the need for single sex spaces.

Whether you’ve got a point or not with regards to your previous comments, this one sucks…. it’s really sad to see women fighting for women’s rights to be told to #bekind in case they’re the direct cause of someone’s suicide. Isn’t that the fucking problem in a nutshell?! Women constantly told to consider others feelings and others rights? To put others first?! As many PP on this thread have pointed out, trans women’s rights should not be at the expense of women’s rights. We don’t have to roll over and accept being shat on.

Some people class women with high testosterone levels as women, I am one of those people.

FFS!

Are you referring to females or males with differences in sex development?

Are you talking about sex or are you talking about gender identity?

Do you consider a male with a difference of sex development a female? Because earlier in the thread that is exactly what you indicated with the links you posted.

It is really not doing anything for your credibility to keep repeating ‘Some people class women with high testosterone levels as women’.

In fact, it is a meaningless statement without clarifying what you mean exactly by high testosterone, and whether you mean women or you include males in that sentence.

No one has to transition

I am not happy with what are effective disabilities - well known and understood genetic disorders - being used to justify transgender people with no genetic disorders wanting to be accepted as female

They can stay as transgender - that's fine, they can ask for things to be made specific to their sex/gender but they shouldn't try to reframe the meaning of women

I went back and looked at the report you mentioned and again it seemed to be specific to domestic violence perpetrated from male to female victims who were at some point in a relationship. So my point was just that if you're going to put out a statistic around femicide it needs to be in context. Nothing implied or untoward about it I just think clarity is really important when taking exerpts like that. My point was that having worked extensively with dv we know that it's under reported in lgbt relationships so it's hard to know how big the problem actually is for transwomen. I'm not denying it's a huge problem for straight/bi women.

For me it means seeing the female angle and recognising where women are disadvantaged because society is set up for male norms. To give two small examples, the low priority given to female-only illnesses like endometriosis or PGP; and the failure to recognise female signs of a heart attack because everyone is trained to spot the male signs.

These are also two areas where transwomen do not experience the same disadvantage as women. I agree there are some areas where transwomen will experience similar disadvantage but assuming they haven't been raised as a girl all their lives for the most part they won't have experienced the same structural discrimination.

To answer this briefly, yes I consider “males” with a difference of sex development a woman/female whatever you want to call them. If they “present” - I know people don’t like this, but if they have a vulva and other people see them as a woman/female, yes for me they’re a female. Tell me I’m disagreeing with science, I don’t care anymore. Hope that helps.